worth a DX11 card?

[Flyby]

a quick question. will it be worth it to buy a DX11 video card? what do you think? any sims coming along that would really benefit from DX11 over DX10?
thanks
Flyby out

[IceFire]

Oleg says that Storm of War will use DX9, DX10 and DX11 rendering capabilities. That sounds pretty fantastic to me. There are some great possibilities included there.

Personally I'll be waiting to see what all comes of it and maybe in a couple of years I'll build a new system. I wouldn't rush out to buy one of the early DX11 cards just yet.

On the other hand if you just have to have the best thing running right now... then go nuts :D

[Igo kyu]

As I understand it, some of the early dx 11 games with early cards, slow down a lot compared to dx 9 (and maybe dx10) on the same cards and games. Whether that will change when programmers get more used to dx 11 I don't know, it could be the difference will change due to drivers, or that later cards will be better optimised for dx 11.

[Flyby]

I wish Oleg would drop a clue. I wonder if SoW will be a whole new experience in DX11 versus DX10, or just a few small enhancements here and there. Some say even tessellation won't be in great content in SoW. The reason for my question is the dropping price of the GTX285. But maybe the 5850 is still the better buy. I don't know.
Flyby out

[IceFire]

Some are saying the ATI cards are way ahead of even the absolute latest nVidia cards. I've see-sawed back and forth between the two but it's worth looking at both camps right now too.

I just wonder if DX11 is too slow for the current batch and that the next batch will be just fine. It's like my old Radeon 9700Pro with DX9 features that it did well but was at the very cutting edge.

[Igo kyu]

I think the situation at the moment is just "not enough information". That will hopefully sort itself out in a couple of months.

[zapatista]

i suspect it will come down to the first buyers/reviewers doing fpsec comparisons in dx9, 10, 11, and seeing which gives the best compromise between speed and quality

but i agree, some indication from oleg on what version of dx he is aiming at optimizing for would be helpful. with the current changes in combining various different versions of the game engine elements (see most recent comments from oleg today), he might not know yet himself

[Flyby]

I found the test of DX11 to be interesting. [H]ardOCP tests the title "Metro 2033". Interesting: http://www.hardocp.com/article/2010/04/05/metro_2033_directx_11_gameplay_performance_iq/1
for the low-down you can go directly to the "conclusion" page in the drop-down menu.
Flyby out

[Thunderbolt56]

To answer your question...is it worth it to buy a DX11 card right now? The easy answer is ...no.

First, there simply isn't much done (or even in the pipeline) right now that is DX11 based. Second, as is typical, the early hardware that is released to use the most recent version of DirectX usually only does it well enough to run it...not make it sing. (remember DX10?).

Regardless of what Oleg's answer is regarding DX versions and their relation to SoW, I wouldn't bother with any of them right now. At least wait for a refresh in a few months or wait until something you really want to play is using DX11, then the value of your purchase is better realized anyway.

[Codex]

Well I think it depends what you want and can afford. I do have to disagree on the point on performance. I have two 5870's in Crossfire, but even when I disable Crossfire, Metro2033 and AvP3 are smooth as butter at 1920*1200, even Crysis runs well on enthusiast settings at full res on one card, but Crossfire is much better.

But if your on a budget and want to upgrade just for flight sims / SoW, I'd wait. Wait for a wider range of Fermi cards to hit the market and for some SoW / DX11 benchmarks to hit this site. Even now the ATI cards are starting to come down in price.

[whatnot]

And another thing I haven't seen an answer to is that how will the performance balance be between CPU and GPU.

I'm planning on investing on a new cpu to accompany my GTX285 for FSX, but it pisses me off that I can't find anything that would clock high without OC'ing them regardless of how much I'd invest.
So do I have to put my propeller hat on and go SubZero on my cooling arrangements with SOW or can I rely on decent CPU accompanied by high end GPU?

I don't need any specs at this moment, but general thoughts on the matter would be nice.

[lbuchele]

I think I agree with Codex.New generation of VGA are so powerful that we are probably in one of the rare points where hardware surpasses current software.
I suspect that we will be able to run fine SOW with the current hardware ( the very best of it, of course)

[AKA_Tenn]

So far, all the dx11 games i've tried don't look a lot different in dx10, but the difference between dx9 and dx11 is quite a bit, i think games that don't just add dx10 and dx11 layers onto an existing dx9 base, but actually make full use of dx11, u might see a bigger difference... but so far, all games have been is dx9, but with a few features from dx10/11 added after the fact.

it'd be nice to see a game where it was specifically designed to work with directx 11, and won't work without... but it'll probly be directx 15 coming out before dx11 becomes standard... if it ever does...

[Codex]

And another thing I haven't seen an answer to is that how will the performance balance be between CPU and GPU.There is no balance yet, almost all games are limited by the GPU when pushed to their limits. You'll get very little difference in frame rates when comparing a budget processor to an extreme processor while using the same video card.

What's really important IMO is memory bandwidth, especially on Vista / Win7 as the OS sees all memory (RAM, VRAM and Page File) as one chunck of addressed space. Hence Fast VRAM, RAM and HDD speed is important.

it'd be nice to see a game where it was specifically designed to work with directx 11The DX11 title really only indicates that the current version of the DirectX API has had additional features added. While SoW will use DX11 functions, it will most likely also use other DX functions that are from earlier revisions, e.g. " IDirectInput8::EnumDevices() " is a DX8 function that allows you to setup and use joysticks, and is still current in the API.

[AKA_Tenn]

The DX11 title really only indicates that the current version of the DirectX API has had additional features added. While SoW will use DX11 functions, it will most likely also use other DX functions that are from earlier revisions, e.g. " IDirectInput8::EnumDevices() " is a DX8 function that allows you to setup and use joysticks, and is still current in the API.

i realize this... but what im trying to get at is...

its like the reason why consoles will never beat PC's in graphics... and why games designed for a console (mainly the xbox360) will always have inferior graphics, even if ported to the PC...
the xbox360 is getting old, its way slower than modern PC's... so...

lessay a company makes a game to work on the xbox360, then they port the game to PC's (that can have insanely better specs)... the PC users are now stuck with the crappy graphics cause the game was designed to run on a slow assed machine.. but if they design a game to work on a super high end machine, then turn stuff off/lower some texture sizes so it works on that lower end machine, tho it would cost a lot more, us enthusiast PC owners might actually get to see what our machines can do....

so far most of the directx11 games were ported from console, then they slapped a few dx11 features on top...

[Slechtvalk]

Dx11 would be great for flight sims.

Dx9
http://img257.imageshack.us/img257/9397/tessellationaus2klein.jpg

Dx11
http://img694.imageshack.us/img694/2006/tessellationan2kleinl.jpg

Maybe in later updates, they support it.. I read somewhere you won't see any difference when using dx9/10 or 11 with SOW/BOB.

[David603]

Maybe in later updates, they support it.. I read somewhere you won't see any difference when using dx9/10 or 11 with SOW/BOB.
So why does Oleg clearly label DX9 screenshots and videos as such?

[Igo kyu]

Dx11 would be great for flight sims.

Dx9
http://img257.imageshack.us/img257/9397/tessellationaus2klein.jpg

Dx11
http://img694.imageshack.us/img694/2006/tessellationan2kleinl.jpg

Maybe in later updates, they support it.. I read somewhere you won't see any difference when using dx9/10 or 11 with SOW/BOB.
If that's for real, and the dx 9 shows what's really there, I'd rather have the dx9. If there are steps (I'm not talking about flight sims here) then I want to be able to walk up them, and stop on one step or the other, not slide down them.

[Flanker35M]

S!

There has been steps in games before DirectX 11 and tesselation ;) IMO Unigine Heaven v2.0 is just a tech demo and good as that. Gauging actual game performance with it is questionable.

[Igo kyu]

S!

There has been steps in games before DirectX 11 and tesselation ;) IMO Unigine Heaven v2.0 is just a tech demo and good as that. Gauging actual game performance with it is questionable.
Sure. :grin:

What I have a problem with is e.g. walls which are flat, but seem to have alcoves in them, but you can't walk into the alcoves because they are visible features, but really (whatever that means in a game) they aren't there at all as spaces. Those exist in Oblivion for instance, and while Oblivion is great, I'd really rather those alcoves didn't appear to be there when they aren't.

Oblivion is pre dx11 I know, it's just the general idea of fake images that aren't mapped to the underlying shapes that I'm talking about, I'm not saying Oleg is even thinking of doing anything like that, I'm just saying that I personally don't like images that don't match the underlying "physical" shapes.

The forests in IL*2 are NOT what I'm talking about, they may be crap images of trees but if you run into the crap image, boy oh boy is that tree solid. The other trees which you can fly through with no damage are much more what I'm talking about, especially as in towns they're solid, but in the countryside they're typically not solid. Hopefully in SoW all the trees will be solid.

[JG27CaptStubing]

I would also wait to let Nvidia address their current issues with heat and noise. They're going to need a die shrink to address these issues. I would wait at least till fall with their new refresh.

On the other hand you have ATI which is showing that it's almost as fast in some cases faster (most likely driver) than Fermi. Much cooler and a lot less cost than Nvidia.

As tempting it is to go with a single card that's more than 2 times faster than what I have now I'm going to wait yet another summer before upgrading. ATI may be the way to go if their second revs which are starting to surface now. It's hard to say with the lack of DX 11 titles if its worth the upgrade now.

[Flanker35M]

S!

Indeed Captain :) It will be interesting to see how it settles after both companies get their stuff refreshed and drivers top notch. Hopefully it results in a healthy price competition, good for us consumers :) I am waiting for my 2Gb ATI card now, ordered it. Shall see when it comes, waited for my 5870HD for like 2 months last year after release...

[JG27CaptStubing]

Believe me I've been tempted and the 2 gig 5870 sounds like the way to go for now.

[Flyby]

Believe me I've been tempted and the 2 gig 5870 sounds like the way to go for now.
hey Cap'n why is a 2gig single GPU the way to? From What I've read around the web (and I may be a little out of date on this) 2gigs only really becomes a noticeable factor at resolutions higher than 1900x1200. I'm talking a 30 inch monitor here. So, I'd like to know your perspective. I will admit that I'd consider buying a 2gig single GPU card if it improves performance at lower resolutions. Like 1900x1080.
thanks!
Flyby out

[Parkaboy]

GFX's change more than anything else in a rig so I really don't like paying out too much cash on them. I got me a 8800gtx oc a while back and I'm still loving it :D.

[He111]

I was planning to buy a 64 bit computer with 8G mem for SOW, will it run better on 64 bit and bulk memory or will 32 / 4G be better?

H

[Flyby]

I was planning to buy a 64 bit computer with 8G mem for SOW, will it run better on 64 bit and bulk memory or will 32 / 4G be better?

H
Oleg states that SoW is coded to run with multiple core processors, so I'd say a 64bit system would be best, especially since it can take advantage of more than 4gigs of system memory. I'm just guessing, of course. ;)
Flyby out

[whatnot]

There is no balance yet, almost all games are limited by the GPU when pushed to their limits. You'll get very little difference in frame rates when comparing a budget processor to an extreme processor while using the same video card.


That's true for FPS's etc, but I'll have to disagree with you on that with simulations. IL-2, DCS, FSX etc are pretty much CPU frequency driven. Whether that is due to their old architechture or not I don't know. But I hope SoW will be different.

[zakkandrachoff]

whit my xfx 5850 black edition and windows 7 64 i play so many games in very detail and 1400 resolution. but the AA in middle.
Hope will dont have so dificult roblems to play SOW in some future. anyway, i have a silencer 750w. i buy another 5850 and i can do a SLI- ( i think)

[Flanker35M]

S!

Depending what ATI has released during autumn it will be either CrossFire 5870HD 2Gb or some of their refreshed GPU's. Should be enough to run SoW :)

[JG27CaptStubing]

hey Cap'n why is a 2gig single GPU the way to? From What I've read around the web (and I may be a little out of date on this) 2gigs only really becomes a noticeable factor at resolutions higher than 1900x1200. I'm talking a 30 inch monitor here. So, I'd like to know your perspective. I will admit that I'd consider buying a 2gig single GPU card if it improves performance at lower resolutions. Like 1900x1080.
thanks!
Flyby out

Resolution does play a part in taking up more space in the memory on the Video card. Today's games are bumping up resolution on the textures themselves. Which means the more textures you can load into Memory the less swapping the card does across the bus which even at 16X is slow. That's what causes studders. It's only a matter of time when they will keep increasing the resolution of the textures. 1 gig is starting to become the norm now for Video Cards. That means my 512 will start to swap and studder a game.

The key to having more memory is if the Game actually us using higher end textures. ie... The new maps and cockpits in the mods are much higher resolution than the original game of IL2. That's why they look much nicer. Oleg and crew aren't going to be aiming at systems with 64megs or 128 megs of ram on the video card anymore. They will have some selection like they have now. Land detail = high and that may bump the res quite a bit.

Make sense?

[JG27CaptStubing]

I was planning to buy a 64 bit computer with 8G mem for SOW, will it run better on 64 bit and bulk memory or will 32 / 4G be better?

H


I would say shoot for a 64 bit OS and you always have the option of adding more Ram. Ram is also coming down in price as well. It means there is quite a bit of breathing room for games of the future. I don't know what Oleg will shoot for in terms of a memory foot print but I bet it's going to be 2gig or more.

[JG27CaptStubing]

That's true for FPS's etc, but I'll have to disagree with you on that with simulations. IL-2, DCS, FSX etc are pretty much CPU frequency driven. Whether that is due to their old architechture or not I don't know. But I hope SoW will be different.

Well now that multicore is pretty much the norm now even for lower end systems CPUs can now be dedicated to do more than what they've done in the past. Flight Sims generally speaking are more CPU intesive though that may change with Oleg creating a new engine to take advantage of DX11 etc. Flight sims are more CPU dependant because they are doing all the math for the FMs damage weapons AI etc. With multiple cores some of that can be spread across the cores.

Falcon 4 actually uses more than one CPU or core. For the most part when you fly in the campaign mode 1 cpu runs the 2D war and the other cpu or core runs the 3d game which has the FM weapons modeling radar etc. It basically runs about 40-60 percent faster than a single core CPU and it came out in 1998. Remarkable scalability.

I know that Rise of Flight is using multicore as well.

The key will be how much will it really add and building applications to take advantage of that technology isn't easy. It doesn't mean things will get faster it may just mean things get more complex. There's a lot of overhead associated with building these apps. Timing of all the processing has to be done just right. Also Win 7 while much better with multiple CPUs and Cores is a good OS it's not perfect. We may need another OS rev to come out before we see the real benefit.

[Flanker35M]

S!

Will be an interesting test, getting a nVidia 480GTX for a spin. Will run tests with it compared to my 5870HD and see. Maybe barbeque some meat in the process or keep my coffee mug hot :D ;) Seriously speaking, will be interesting to test the card. Brand is PNY.

[Flyby]

interesting info/opinions here. lots to think about.
Flaker35M, good luck with your -480. Do you own "Rise of Flight"? That might be a good test of your new card, probably more so than testing IL2 (multi-core usage, and a powerful GPU) imo.
Flyby out

[Codex]

Well there's rumours flying around the net that ATI have already got the Southern Islands chip (6XXX series?) ready and may have engineering sample cards ready in just over a month. Mind you, they are rumours :rolleyes:

[Flanker35M]

S!

Will post ASAP when I get the card, they are quite far and between at the moment. So propably next week I will get it :) Gonna test it with Rise Of Flight, IL-2 Sturmovik, Metro 2033, S.T.AL.K.E.R. - Call Of Pripyat, EVE Online etc. The games I play :)

As of the new 6XXX cards, would be interesting if those showed up now :) Might stir up the competition a bit :D And that would be good for us end users don't you think :D

[JG27CaptStubing]

Rise of Flight might be a good test for sure... Though there is something about their art I don't like... IMO.

[KG26_Alpha]

Apparently an issue is with noise on the 480GTX

But if the cards kept in a cool case the temps don't get up there, I've not noticed the temps over 75' yet and its quiet.
But
I don't overclock, never seen the need too.

[Flanker35M]

S!

Alpha, you got a 480GTX? Which brand? I chose between Asus and PNY, the latter I favored because of previous good impression with my GeForce I had earlier.

[zauii]

I wish Oleg would drop a clue. I wonder if SoW will be a whole new experience in DX11 versus DX10, or just a few small enhancements here and there. Some say even tessellation won't be in great content in SoW. The reason for my question is the dropping price of the GTX285. But maybe the 5850 is still the better buy. I don't know.
Flyby out

A whole new experience, no.
A better experience.. yes. DX10, DX11 doesn't give you an alternate game. The hype behind DX10 around the release of Crysis was one of the biggest bloopers, seeing as DX9 could do everything promised as Dx10 exclusive a long with the whole 64 vs 32 bit mishap. And yet today the difference between dx10,9 is slim, even more so between 10,11. We'll see eventually if the developers can utilize tessellation etc with dx11 a lot better.

I'd probably wait and see to be honest, Oleg haven't revealed much regarding this.

[KG26_Alpha]

S!

Alpha, you got a 480GTX? Which brand? I chose between Asus and PNY, the latter I favored because of previous good impression with my GeForce I had earlier.





Hi

I try to always buy MSI Nvidia cards for myself, the punters get what they have asked for usually the cheapest when building a Gamer PC:)

N480GTX-M2D15

http://www.msi.com/index.php?func=proddesc&maincat_no=130&prod_no=2040

[Flanker35M]

S!

I had earlier before ATI this MSI 280GTX, was a nice card but damn noisy cooling fan. A friend of mine bought it off me when I went 5870HD. Ages ago my 9900GT GeForce was PNY and very nice.

[Flyby]

A whole new experience, no.
A better experience.. yes. DX10, DX11 doesn't give you an alternate game. The hype behind DX10 around the release of Crysis was one of the biggest bloopers, seeing as DX9 could do everything promised as Dx10 exclusive a long with the whole 64 vs 32 bit mishap. And yet today the difference between dx10,9 is slim, even more so between 10,11. We'll see eventually if the developers can utilize tessellation etc with dx11 a lot better.

I'd probably wait and see to be honest, Oleg haven't revealed much regarding this.
I don't know that I'll be able to wait until SoW is released, unless it's released sometime before July. I hope to be well in building my new rig by then, It's been a long time coming. Besides, I've seen where the 5850 is as fast as the GTX285, and costs less. Then there's the GTX470. Might as well go with a DX11 card. No telling what fabulous air-combat sim might spring forth to take full advantage of DX11. ;)
Flyby out

[baronWastelan]

Image Quality: DirectX 11 Vs. DirectX 9
2:00 AM - April 22, 2010 by Don Woligroski

Before I say anything else, I'm going to mention the experience I had in evaluating DiRT 2's DirectX 11 implementation: it turns out that people see what they expect to see. I'm as guilty of this as anyone, which is why we collect objective data like screenshots to support any conclusions we make. Despite the proof, you would not believe how many people have accused me of making a mistake when comparing DiRT 2's DirectX 9 and DirectX 11 visuals. Some folks assume that the difference is huge, and the mind tends to play tricks to convince its owner that expectations will be met. I've had discussions with readers claiming that the difference between DirectX 9 and DirectX 11 in DiRT 2 is like night and day, that it's incredibly obvious to them, and if the evidence doesn't support that opinion, then the evidence must be flawed. But the evidence shows that the differences are minor at best, and completely unnoticeable during gameplay at worst.

Why am I mentioning this? It's a pre-emptive strike, because Aliens vs. Predator falls in the same boat. Folks, it is almost impossible to tell if this game is running in DirectX 9 or DirectX 11 mode during actual play. Despite the impressive tessellated alien mesh on the previous page, I am convinced that there is no realistic way to tell if the game is running in DirectX 9 or 11 mode while playing it unless AA is enabled, assuming your style of gameplay doesn't involve spending time standing still and staring at alien corpses until they melt away.

While the potential for tessellation to improve the detail of a 3D model is undeniable, any noticeable increase in the final result depends on the difference between the appearance of the standard version vs. the tessellated version. The standard alien model is extremely well-detailed, and so meticulously crafted, in fact, that I don't think it's at all practical to assume anyone would see the difference while playing this game. Perhaps a player might notice something if they scrutinize a non-moving alien body, but while actually playing the game and fighting the aliens, it's completely unapparent.

What about high dynamic-range AO and DirectX 11-enhanced shadows? These features are even subtler than the tessellation effect. In a static screenshot comparison, you need to struggle to find any difference whatsoever.

http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/aliens-vs-predator-directx-11-benchmark,2606-4.html

[Flyby]

Well baron that's an interesting article,and it seems to support your POV. Thank you for the link. It was very informative. I surmise from this that buying a card which supports DX11 at this time, and with SoW_BoB in mind, is superfluous. Probably it's best for future-proofing, provided something or some sim comes along to take advantage of it. I noted that the article also let me know that I needn't worry about straining my CPU to overclock it to it's max (on air, that is). But I'd like to wait until SOW's requirements are released before making a final decision on how much to overclock my little i7-920.
Still, while a DX11 card may be useless for SoW, or any sim/game at present, I'll probably buy one since a card like the ATI5850 performs as well as the GTX285 and still costs less, last time I checked. It's a no-brainer. Oleg's sim will probably make use of more on-board memory, so I'm looking at the GTX470, if budget allows. It's not really that much of a step up from the 5850, but it has more memory. I doubt that Oleg's sim will make great use of tessellation (why? I don't know. I just think not) in an air-combat sim. Besides, I hope to be too busy trying to stay alive to notice the subtleties ("goodness those clouds look awesome...BOOM-BOOM-BOOM!!! Great looking smoke!! Pretty FLAMES too!!!Over the side!)
Flyby out

[Novotny]

Thank you Baron, some sense for these troubled forums.


though worth mentioning - never take one site's reviews over another. Compare 5.

[Flanker35M]

S!

Flyby, there are also new updated 2Gb cards from ATI in 5xxx series. And a refresh is on it's way as well some time this year and next year, who knows ;) Interesting article indeed.

[Flyby]

S~! Rgrt, Flanker35M. I'll check about and see what I can find per that info. I hope it's sooner rather than later. I'd hate to think I'd have to wait one more year for a memory-capable card to run SoW without stutters. :D
Flyby out
edit: found this: http://www.hardwarecanucks.com/forum/hardware-canucks-reviews/30635-sapphire-hd-5870-2gb-toxic-edition-review.html

[Flyby]

oh, btw, if you follow the link to hardwarecanucks' review of the 2gb ATI 5870 jump straight to the conclusion for the bottom line on performance. SPOILER ALERT!!!!!

There is not much benefit to just adding another gig of memory to this card. That seems to be the essential truth of other reviews I've read of video cards that added that extra gig of memory. If nothing else in the architecture changes, then the results are minor at best. Now if the memory bus was opened to 348mb or 512mb we might see that extra memory put to good use, otherwise it seems a bit of a gimmick. I was hoping this time it would be different. Maybe it will be different in SoW, at least to possibly limit stutters.
Flyby out

[Flanker35M]

S!

It counts when you use FSAA. And RoF uses a lot of GPU memory so it could help there. But as said, before refreshes hard to tell :) And my bet is that SoW will not use that much tesselation anyway, quite useless feature eating FPS and resources IMO in a flight sim. Those RPG etc. are another issue though, there it might be of more use.

[Flyby]

point taken Flanker35m. Going slightly OT, have you seen this interview of Oleg?
http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/23110283/m/7371056558/p/2
Flyby out

[Flanker35M]

S!

Flyby, worth reading this review here: http://www.hardwareheaven.com/reviews.php?reviewid=965 Very interesting read. The GFX competition will for sure heat up this year ;)

[Flyby]

S!

Flyby, worth reading this review here: http://www.hardwareheaven.com/reviews.php?reviewid=965 Very interesting read. The GFX competition will for sure heat up this year ;)
That review seems to bear out what I've read about adding an extra gb of memory to a card. But the person who wrote that review seems to be an ATI fanboy. He seems to think that 2gb 5870 was superior to the GTX480 in spite of the evidence otherwise in most of the games tested. Specifically, the 2GB 5870 card performed better than the GTX 480 at the higher resolution of 25x16 where the extra memory helps out, but at the lower resolution of 19x12 the ATI card loses every time. The moral of the story thereby holds true for me: a single GPU card with 2gb of memory is superior in performance to a single GPU with less memory only at the higher 25x16 resolution. But it's a moot point for me. I can't afford an LCD monitor that runs at that resolution, and I suspect most people here on these forums don't play at that resolution either. Now open up the bus on that ATI 5870 2gb card to that of the GTX 480 and you'd probably have a real monster able to devour the Nvidia card at all resolutions, imo. ;)
Flyby

[Flanker35M]

S!

I read all reviews with a grain of salt ;) But interesting to see that the 2Gb ATI did get a boost. With the upcoming refresh with fixed tesselation performance I bet ATI will be at the same ballpark again. But I think that review really summed it up at the end: hard to choose between the 2, boils down to if you use PhysX/CUDA or not which one to get. Anyways, good to see we have options :)

[Flyby]

rgrt Flanker35M. a grain of salt goes a long way. ;)
Flyby out

[JG27CaptStubing]

S!

I read all reviews with a grain of salt ;) But interesting to see that the 2Gb ATI did get a boost. With the upcoming refresh with fixed tesselation performance I bet ATI will be at the same ballpark again. But I think that review really summed it up at the end: hard to choose between the 2, boils down to if you use PhysX/CUDA or not which one to get. Anyways, good to see we have options :)

There are folks out there that have PhysX running with ATI cards along with an Nvidia in the same machine.

PhysX isn't really that important until we start to see some titles beyond Batman that actually take use of it beyond flying paper and flags.

It might be great for a combat flight sim for explosions and modeling smaller portions of the sim. Right now it's a bit gimicy for me...

[Flyby]

There are folks out there that have PhysX running with ATI cards along with an Nvidia in the same machine.

PhysX isn't really that important until we start to see some titles beyond Batman that actually take use of it beyond flying paper and flags.

It might be great for a combat flight sim for explosions and modeling smaller portions of the sim. Right now it's a bit gimicy for me...
Perhaps DX25 will incorporate some form of PhysX in the future. ;)
Flyby out

[Flanker35M]

S!

PhysX is just a gimmick atm for me as well as I rarely play any first person shooters or role playing games etc. EVE Online might get some PhysX/CUDA in the future as walking in stations is implemented, but again those are just rumours as of yet.

Anyways interesting to see how this evolves as AMD also got their 6-core CPU's out and they seem to offer quite a bit of performance for the bucks invested :) Will upgrade from 790FX to 890FX shortly, when those new mobos land here :D

[JG27CaptStubing]

For those that think tessellation is a waste of time. Some have metioned what would we use it for in a combat flight sim. Well it might not be that obvious but take a look around in the current versions of IL2 cockpits. I bet the cockpit framing would look a hell of a lot better if some amount of Tessellation were used via the DX11 feature.

Just my 2 pennies.

[Flyby]

Hey Cap,
I'd want as many options turned on as my GPU could support, provided I didn't take a major hit (<25-30fps). It would be interesting to see how Oleg's sim will be presented, and whether or not any current (by the time of release) GPU could ever display it in all it's glory.
It's amazing at this stage of development that we still have no clue as to what GPU spec will be required. I wonder how people can wait until release to upgrade. But then again, if you're into flight sims, only Rise of Flight seems to be worthy to challenge an up-to-date system, and only in 32bit at that. Oleg's baby is long overdue, but how advanced can it be compared to current technology? The whole world wonders.
Flyby out

[Flanker35M]

S!

Will be interesting to see what features there will be in SoW :) Wishing they would be those that actually are of importance, not just gimmicks and FPS eaters. Funnily enough most of games, if not all I play are DirectX 9 or older atm. Oldest of them being Knights Of The Old Republic II: The Sith Lords..I think only DX 11 titles I have are AvP and Metro 2033..

[Flyby]

+1 Flanker35M. I am still hopeful that technology has caught up with Oleg, given how long SOW's graphic engine has been under development. Does anyone know what engine he's using? Did he create his own?

I don't believe DX-11 will play a big part in SoW. Flanker, of those DX-11 titles you have, what can you report about the impact it has on the immersion factor you see in them?
Flyby out

[Bearcat]

Didn't read the whole thread so I don't know what you have done or not done yet.. but I would say wait until you are ready to buy and consider your CPU... If you can I would say go with a DX-11 card.. unless you want to get a higher end DX-10 card with an option to upgrade.. but all things considered from what I know ... that will not be a viable option... Hence my suggestion to get a DX-11 card.. but hold out as long as you can unless you come across an obvious great buy.. This has been in the works for some time now if my memory serves me correctly.. so wait to get the stars in alignment and strike when the iron is hot...

As for the engine... it is 1C's... like the IL2 engine was.. but consider the WoP engine. Visually it is the best thing out there in a WWII sim to date.. I frankly cannot imagine SoW looking worse and I have no doubt that SoW will not be as feature deficient as WoP. In WoP I get 60 FPS with everything maxed out... I would expect nothing less that 50 in Sow.. I know that 1C has considered all the deficiencies and limitations of the IL2 engine.

[Flyby]

Oh, DX11 it is. I'm prepared to wait at least until Nvidia springs it's new GTX-470 equivalent on the GF104 architecture (like on the GTX 460). That should not be too long a wait. SoW should be out before July. ;) We'll see. But there are other sims I expect to be flying before SoW hit's the shelves, so I guess I'll have to pay my money and take my chances.
Flyby out

[MikkOwl]

Been thinking of this also. My computer was very high end when forged at mount Doom in late 2006. Later upgraded with a medium range graphics card made of cryptonite in 2008. It will not be able to deal with the demands SoW will put on it.

It is possible that DX11 cards will be outright faster due to various optimizations. Also possible that tesselation might make a big difference in visual quality inside the cockpit (I doubt that though). More likely there will be only small differences between DX10 and 11. In this respect, the best card should be that which runs it the fastest yet costs the least.

To figure out what card it should be I will probably wait until some months after release of SoW to collect more information about how things perform (and letting prices drop further).

[Flanker35M]

S!

I am currently using the 480GTX. Tessellation in AvP is on the creature and surfaces, but frankly I do not have time to watch at them when the hordes of aliens and predators are engaging :D In Metro it has some effect, but again noticing tessellation is IMO just a gimmick. Has too much impact to FPS. In SoW tessellation..up to Oleg, but could live without it.

[Hecke]

I thought...

Tesselation was not to make better graphic quality but to improve performance and fps?

When getting away of an object the details decrease.

Or am I wrong?


Hecke

[KaHzModAn]

I thought...

Tesselation was not to make better graphic quality but to improve performance and fps?

When getting away of an object the details decrease.

Or am I wrong?


Hecke

you are right but still it has an impact when used on a lot of objects, try it out by yoursef with Unigine Heaven ! :) (if you have a Dx11 card)

this is what it looks like in Unigine, here im using max tesselation settings, i loose about 15fps ! (but "only" 5 using moderate settings) with a single 5770
WITHOUT tesselation :
http://a.imageshack.us/img85/4939/00005a.th.jpg (http://img85.imageshack.us/i/00005a.jpg/)
and WITH it :cool: :
http://a.imageshack.us/img227/4812/00006ab.th.jpg (http://img227.imageshack.us/i/00006ab.jpg/)

[Flyby]

Good to know, Flanker. I seem to recall something (somewhere) about the FPS hit, and about how effect is barely noticed in a busy game.
KaHzModAn, looking at the images it appears that the dragon is enhanced, which is reflected in the showdow, and the smoke from the chimneys is a bit different, but the stones the dragon is perched on do not change at all.
Also, MikkOwl, DX11 does not mean a card will be faster. There are quite a few low-budget cards out there that support DX11, that will have trouble with some DX11 titles unless certain features are turned down or have trouble with higher resolutions. But there's a DX11 card out there for almost every budget these days. So it's a good time (think Crossfire or SLi)
Flyby out

[KaHzModAn]

yeah, those stone are the only thing not enhanced,
for the smoke i think its just due to the fact i took the screen a few seconds later...

but just look at the roofs, the stairs, the stones on the ground, the windows, angles from the houses... for having tried it in "real" on my PC I can tell you the difference is huge ! :shock:

But anyway I don't think its gonna be used in BOB so...