Friday 2010-04-09 Discussion Thread

[Foo'bar]

Discuss here about missing update.

Sorry, I really couldn't resist ;)

[Skarphol]

Well, it's a little bit funny to realize that I have checked this page about 12-15 times today. Maybe I'm developing an addiction.

Oleg and Luthier missing out on an update isn't that big deal.
I'll go to bed now, disappointed, and obviously not "in the mood" to give the missus the usual fridaynight treatment, but in a week this will all be forgotten..

Skarphol

[HB252]

Only cheked 12-15 times!!!

Today (Saturday), or yesterday (:-P) i cheked about 10 15 times per hour----> ITS MY ADDICTION :grin:

Waiting for the graet update!!!!:cool:

[Qpassa]

Well I am going to wait patiently ,it doesnt mind if oleg doesnt show us the advance of this week

[Zappatime]

Discuss here about missing update.

Sorry, I really couldn't resist ;)

:rolleyes:nice one, lol

[lbuchele]

I kept it opened all day long at the office today and ...

[major_setback]

Well, in case anyone missed this morsel:

http://forum.1cpublishing.eu/attachment.php?attachmentid=2141&d=1270543364

[AKA_Tenn]

wow thats AMAZING!!! looks so real, still too saturated... looks like a HDR picture (a picture taken at 3 or more exposure levels, then merged into one, to get the supposed "true" colour)

[Zorin]

Well sorry, but that bump map is ridiculous. Germans actually knew what flush riveting meant and any odd real picture of a Dornier 17 or 215 will show you that.

http://i205.photobucket.com/albums/bb107/ZorinW/do2-1.jpg

http://i205.photobucket.com/albums/bb107/ZorinW/do1-1.jpg

[Viking]

If only Oleg et conc could understand the importance of the friday updates. We (I) go to a lot of hazzards in order to get to a internet connection and after a week of waiting....POF!
Nothing!

[nearmiss]

Why don't you just send Oleg or Luthier a PM message. I don't think either of them will bite you.

[AndyJWest]

Germans actually knew what flush riveting meant...
Well, if I was being really picky (;)), I'd suggest that if a rivet was actually 'flush', ideally you wouldn't be able to see it. I suspect that most airframe rivets tend to become more prominent over time, but does it really matter? If you are close enough to the Dornier to see the rivets, you are probably about to collide with it anyway. I'd say that what a plane looked like from 300 yards was more important.

Eye candy is good, but not at the expense of realism in other things.

[zapatista]

Well sorry, but that bump map is ridiculous. Germans actually knew what flush riveting meant and any odd real picture of a Dornier 17 or 215 will show you that.

oleg's rivets look perfectly fine

just look on the right hand side of the 1e picture you posted yourself, and you will observe the rivets in some sections of the plane really stand out. the parts of the plane where you cant see the rivets as obvious has mostly to do with the angle that section of the wing/fuselage is looked at (AND the fact you posted a scanned picture of a very low resolution aged photograph )

if you then look closely at oleg's plane, you will see the rivets in some part of the aircraft really seem to stand out, and in others they are almost invisible, it all has to do with the angle you look at the surfaces, how close you are, and the lighting (and image resolution of course)

i suspect are you one of those people who believes that 100 yrs ago the people in the early cinema reels actually walked in that funny accelerated matter in real life as well all the time

[zapatista]

on a more cheerful note, is anybody here keeping an eye on the russian forums that oleg posts updates in ? there might be some other pics/vids we havnt seen there

/says i hopefully :)

[BLR_Tonin_fr]

Nice one Foo'bar... Got me.

[Skoshi Tiger]

I think the .303's are porked!

All the bullet holes in the 17 are round, which means the .303 rounds were all fired at 90 degrees, Now unless the Dornier was stationary the holes should be oval.

Now the 175 grain .303 round is 31mm in length and travels at about 2445 foot per second (at the muzzle) which works out at about 745725mm per second, so it takes about 0.000042 of a second to travel the 31mm from the tip of the bullet to its butt!

Now lets say the Dornier is traveling at 300km/h thats about 83333mm per second

So in the 0.000042 seconds it takes the bullet to travel the 31mm the plane will have traveled about 3.5mm, so the bullet hole from the .303 round should be an oval about 7.9mmx11.4mm.

The graphical representation of the said bullet holes is porked Q.E.D

Time for another beer!

Cheers!

{ All simple mathematical an logical (and spelling) errors a proudly of my own making! }

[Erkki]

Whats this then? :grin::rolleyes:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jfa578J4-Jk

[DK-nme]

I think the .303's are porked!

All the bullet holes in the 17 are round, which means the .303 rounds were all fired at 90 degrees, Now unless the Dornier was stationary the holes should be oval.

Now the 175 grain .303 round is 31mm in length and travels at about 2445 foot per second (at the muzzle) which works out at about 745725mm per second, so it takes about 0.000042 of a second to travel the 31mm from the tip of the bullet to its butt!

Now lets say the Dornier is traveling at 300km/h thats about 83333mm per second

So in the 0.000042 seconds it takes the bullet to travel the 31mm the plane will have traveled about 3.5mm, so the bullet hole from the .303 round should be an oval about 7.9mmx11.4mm.


Nonsens. The angle of attack is the only factor, that has anything to do with the form of a bullet hole - or did I just miss something (like this being for fun?)


DK-nme

[DK-nme]

Whats this then? :grin::rolleyes:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jfa578J4-Jk

Is that from the movie "The german"?


DK-nme

[Skoshi Tiger]

Nonsens. The angle of attack is the only factor, that has anything to do with the form of a bullet hole - or did I just miss something (like this being for fun?)


DK-nme

Yes it is for fun but in some weird wisted way it makes sense.

The the aircraft and the bullet have different vectors. It takes time for the bullet to pass through the skin of the aircraft. During that time the aircraft moves (about 3.5mm from my rough calculations). Therefore due to the momentum of the bullet and its physical properties that make it want to continue on its path, the holes should not be round.

What I did not factor into my calculations were the acceleration imparted by the skin of the aircraft onto the bullet, nor the fact that the .303 bullet was designed deform and tumble after impact to impart it's energy to it's target, both of which goes towards my original statement.

It's times like these we need Raaid to explain things on this forum!!!!!

Cheers!

[Erkki]

;)

[DK-nme]

The aircraft and the bullet have different vectors. It takes time for the bullet to pass through the skin of the aircraft. During that time the aircraft moves (about 3.5mm from my rough calculations). Therefore due to the momentum of the bullet and its physical properties that make it want to continue on its path, the holes should not be round.

This makes sense. And again, is a matter of angle of attack (bullet and plane vectors and or trajectories).

And no, I don't think mass of bullet, velocity, skin hardness and angle of attack (deflection) will ever be modelled in SoW...


DK-nme

[jannaspookie]

oleg's rivets look perfectly fine you rude little twit

i suspect are you one of those people who believes that 100 yrs ago the people in the early cinema reels actually walked in that funny accelerated matter in real life as well all the time

Wow. I'm surprised such flagrant disrespect is allowed in these forums. It's one thing to disagree with his statement, but to personally attack someone is entirely different. Besides, if you knew anything about Zorin, you'd know that he is fairly knowledgeable about WWII aircraft, and especially German ones.

[MikkOwl]

If those small AP bullets do what anti tank penetrators do, then if striking at an angle, they either deflect and deform (denting the surface possibly), or they penetrate, with the projectile bending/turning into the surface. Even if it bends inwards, I'm sure the hole is not completely round, nor oval. Probably slightly heart-shaped (but rounded on the upper edge). Either way, it is insignificant. Round is pretty close for most situations. The rivet issue is more important. Even if ENEMY planes may be far away, friendly planes may fly very close, close enough to see. More so, seeing one's own plane from the cockpit (especially noticeable in twin engined or more). That's close enough to notice.

[Skoshi Tiger]

Sometimes the smallest details are probably the most important.

Maybe my issue with the .303 bullet holes was that the even though the rivets have a shape and look natural (to someone who doesn't know one end of a Do-17 to the other) the bullet holes are flat and look out of place with the rest of the detail.

I wonder if they could alter the displacement mapping (bump mapping or what ever they call it) of the aircraft's skin to reflect the damage. It would mean that each aircraft woulds need its own map, but ones the damage is incorporated to it, it would take no extra resources to display the detail.

Cheers!

[zapatista]

Wow. I'm surprised such flagrant disrespect is allowed in these forums. It's one thing to disagree with his statement, but to personally attack someone is entirely different. Besides, if you knew anything about Zorin, you'd know that he is fairly knowledgeable about WWII aircraft, and especially German ones.

i replied in kind to the tone of his post, did you find that hard to spot ?

[whatnot]

I think the .303's are porked!

All the bullet holes in the 17 are round, which means the .303 rounds were all fired at 90 degrees, Now unless the Dornier was stationary the holes should be oval.



I paid attention to the same detail, but never got around commenting on that. I haven't seen a title with bullethole decals in correct shape depending on the angle, SOW could be the first! =)

[Ernst]

Reading the posts i have a theory about Oleg missing. He is on vacation cause you are always complaining :evil: May he gets tired from very annoying individuals. ;)

Some here would like to turn SoW in a RPG instead of Sim. I am favourable to add imersion features related to the AIRCRAFT, like better FMs, more complex engine management and instrumentation.

I have to read someone who asks if it ll be possible drink some beer in the base and then go fly. What the hell!?:evil:

Hey Oleg do not pay attention this guys, release our updates please!:cool:

[Avimimus]

Hey, be polite. It is a nicer atmosphere for us banana worms.

Discuss here about missing update.

Sorry, I really couldn't resist ;)

Brilliant!

I'm going to watch last week's vid again.

[RedToo]

Never mind you can always read my Friday update :)

http://simhq.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/topics/2682133/While_we_re_waiting_for_BoB_So.html#Post2682133

Redtoo.

[Sternjaeger]

cor, I forgot how every forum always has some very sad people which all they can do is offend each other instead of contributing politely and constructively..

Anyway, to support the irregular bullet hole theory:

http://www.warbirdsresourcegroup.org/LRG/images/lrg0624.jpg

it's interesting to note though how from the shooter's perspective those holes will appear pretty much rounded (check attached image) :-)

I want to hope that, being a beta, there's going to be an overall improvement of texture quality, all in all those bullet holes are just textures, so I'm sure it wouldn't be difficult to address. I would focus more on the "u get a hole where you actually get hit" feature!

SJ

[Sternjaeger]

uh and btw I agree with Zorin about the rivet bump mapping being a bit overdone, it looks like like some bad 1/72nd old Airfix model kit :rolleyes:

[Romanator21]

Relax everyone. First there were complaints that there were no rivets visible, and now the complaints are that there are too many. Luthier showed us that angle specifically to highlight the rivet mapping. It doesn't appear like that all the time as shown in the video when they were hardly visible.

I think it was mentioned that bump mapping is editable like the skin is in Il-2. The effect can be tuned to your liking.

And finally, let's consider the beautiful Bf-110. I think it's safe to say that player controlled aircraft will be up to that standard, while more detail will be added to the AI planes as they become pilot-able. The Do-17 is NOT going to be player controlled on release, so exactly mapping the skin is not as much a priority as sorting out the Ju-88's or He-111's.

As for bullet holes, Oleg specifically said that initially SOW would NOT take into account bullet angle when rendering bullet holes. This is again, to save resources. I don't think the vast majority of our PCs will render ANY bullet holes at all due to the immense load of things already being processed and rendered. The engine will probably handle these things in due time thanks to the third parties, but will our PCs?.

[Skoshi Tiger]

Relax?

I thought the specific purpose of this thread was to comment of statements that Oleg didn't make and comment on images that Oleg didn't post in this context? How can we relax when we are given an opportunity like this? ;)

If we're going to make irrelevant, nit-picking comments that are going to annoy and offend people, at least we can be assured that Oleg won't be reading them here :) (It would be extremely irresponsible for him to read or comment in this thread.)

Cheers! ;)

PS - Please remember that this thread is a W.I.P and may contain comments that will not be in the official update thread!

[choctaw111]

I checked in here numerous times yesterday, and several times today.
Perhaps it really is an addiction and I was really looking forward to a fix.
I am really looking forward to the next update.

[Necrobaron]

Whats this then? :grin::rolleyes:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jfa578J4-Jk

I long for the days when flight sims look like that. Maybe a generation or two after SoW?
________
Alaska Dispensary (http://alaska.dispensaries.org/)

[Novotny]

Oh that's clever. I wasn't sure if that was nonsense or not until about three quarters through (showing, perhaps, a measure of hopeful thinking)!

[Romanator21]

Skoshi, I'm asking for folks to chill who are starting to go at each others' throats. Not you or your request specifically.

However, with regards to bullet holes, Oleg already acknowledged that elliptical bullet holes based on hit angle will not be possible (in the first installment at least). ;) Cheers.

[Oleg Maddox]

If only Oleg et conc could understand the importance of the friday updates. We (I) go to a lot of hazzards in order to get to a internet connection and after a week of waiting....POF!
Nothing!

We simply very busy. Sorry. And we are rebuilding version. There are so many changes and at the same time current missings, that better nothing to show, than to show and then read that people didn't understand why....

[Rote Dreizehn]

I fully understand Oleg Maddox. Please ignore these people. From my side it is not so important to have Screenshots every Friday. It is better that Oleg and the Dev Team
can develope BOB without interrupts.

>>We simpl very busy. Sorry. And we are rebuilding version. There are so many >>changes and at the same time current missings, that better nothing to show, than to >>show and then read that people didn't understand why....

[DD_crash]

I fully understand Oleg Maddox. Please ignore these people. From my side it is not so important to have Screenshots every Friday. It is better that Oleg and the Dev Team
can develope BOB without interrupts.

>>We simpl very busy. Sorry. And we are rebuilding version. There are so many >>changes and at the same time current missings, that better nothing to show, than to >>show and then read that people didn't understand why....
You tell `em Oleg! :)

[philip.ed]

We simply very busy. Sorry. And we are rebuilding version. There are so many changes and at the same time current missings, that better nothing to show, than to show and then read that people didn't understand why....

Thank you for posting this ;) But what does 'we are rebuilding version' mean?! :D Is this a joke? :P

[Stranzki]

Thank you for posting this ;) But what does 'we are rebuilding version' mean?! :D Is this a joke? :P

I think he means that they are putting together a new version of the game - including new features, updated code and so on.

[philip.ed]

I'm not sure if this is good or bad. Will it affect time scale?

[Richie]

Pretty sure that is from the 10 min short film called "The German" I put questions up on simhq about it. I'm Hackl in there.



http://www.thegermanmovie.com/

[AndyJWest]

...we are rebuilding version
I'm not sure if this is good or bad. Will it affect time scale?
Almost certainly just a normal part of the development process. Most likely, they try to create a 'stable' compile of the software every so often, and then updates to separate parts are tested with this. Every so often, they need to incorporate the changes into a new compile - the 'rebuild' that Oleg refers to. If you try to continually incorporate all changes into your development compile, you can end up with hard-to-track-down conflicts, problems with testing, and much else.

Of course, he could mean he's starting again from scratch.:wink:

[Stranzki]

I'm not sure if this is good or bad. Will it affect time scale?

Putting together new versions of a software internally is a pretty normal process and very important. On this way you can assure that every part of the application is working and more important is working together as a unit.
The other way round would be the "big bang integration". Wait to the very end, put everything together and see what happens - most time nothing works at all and the project is delayed by months, years or is aborted ;)

[philip.ed]

Great news, thanks chaps ;)

[Oleg Maddox]

I think he means that they are putting together a new version of the game - including new features, updated code and so on.

Correct. Updating version and this means we put together new source code that was developed in parallel by different members of a team. And this means that not always all is going well from the first attempt. Its normal development process.

[Oleg Maddox]

Almost certainly just a normal part of the development process. Most likely, they try to create a 'stable' compile of the software every so often, and then updates to separate parts are tested with this. Every so often, they need to incorporate the changes into a new compile - the 'rebuild' that Oleg refers to. If you try to continually incorporate all changes into your development compile, you can end up with hard-to-track-down conflicts, problems with testing, and much else.



Correct :)

[philip.ed]

So Oleg, does this mean that the pictures and videos that we were shown before are now redundant?

[choctaw111]

So Oleg, does this mean that the pictures and videos that we were shown before are now redundant?


I guess it would be as redundant as a "work in progress", as we have been told EVERY update. Things change throughout the development process.

[philip.ed]

I guess it would be as redundant as a "work in progress", as we have been told EVERY update. Things change throughout the development process.

So true ;) I'd be interested though to see comparison shots of any details that have been signifcantly changed ;)

[AndyJWest]

So Oleg, does this mean that the pictures and videos that we were shown before are now redundant?

I hope not! As Oleg said, it is normal to do this while developing software: actually, for a big project like SoW:BoB, trying to do it any other way would be madness. I'd imagine that as you get nearer the end of the development cycle, such rebuilds tend to become more complex because (a) you are dealing with more code and data, and (b) you have to be more fussy about sorting out minor bugs that you could work around in earlier development stages.

Remember too that a lot of changes may have no effect on graphics, though since we've been seeing WIP, hopefully visual changes will be improvements.

[Insuber]

We simply very busy. Sorry. And we are rebuilding version. There are so many changes and at the same time current missings, that better nothing to show, than to show and then read that people didn't understand why....

No problem Oleg, take your time! I took over the update personally this week, it is a pleasure to help!

And people didn't understand as well, I gave them the seagulls, now they dispute over their AI, I gave an English tree, now they dispute about branches ... buuuh!

Bye,
Insuber

PS: I'm expecting a two years ban for my shamelessness ... :D

[Novotny]

Very grateful for the update on the updating :)

[airmalik]

And people didn't understand as well, I gave them the seagulls, now they dispute over their AI, I gave an English tree, now they dispute about branches ... buuuh!


True.

I'd much rather prefer development notes rather than screenshots/videos which are likely to change from week to week until the Beta is ready. Even though we know that posted screenies etc. are WIP, it's frustrating to see elements in images which aren't up to the expectations from IL2's successor.

For instance, I'd prefer updates like "Working on enhancement to cloud generation code to allow for flat bottommed clouds." or "Enhancing maps to include sandy beaches with rocks along coastlines." or "clouds now generated automatically over thermal producing areas" or "integrated optimized forest generation code in stable branch" etc.

This would probably reduce distressed posts by panicked fans when they see WIP imagery. Might also allow Oleg to talk in greated detail about more 'revolutionary' features without giving away implementation details.

[lbuchele]

Thanks to worry about to explain to us why the friday update was missed.
You really have my respect.
It´s an interesting world , combat flying simulation crowd.
It´s like a writer explaining for his readers every week why he did this and that with the characters in his book and changing the history with the sugestions of the people.
Totally different way to do a form of art. ( I consider game developing a new form of art, tolding histories in a virtual way)

[Novotny]

Interesting! I agree. I went visual to sonic to game art.

[Richie]

Is that from the movie "The german"?




Yes!!!!

[Richie]

http://www.thegermanmovie.com/

[AndyJWest]

Ibuchile writes:
I consider game developing a new form of art...
But is it a new form, or an old form expressed in a new medium? Consider chess, or poker. In both cases, one is involved in combat in an'imaginary' arena, but with real opponents. Inventing new worlds to fight in seems to be a very old human trait...

(sorry, came over all anthropological there...)

[Viking]

I am now out of the jungel and back in Bangkok so easyier to see next update.

[major_setback]

True.

I'd much rather prefer development notes rather than screenshots/videos which are likely to change from week to week until the Beta is ready. Even though we know that posted screenies etc. are WIP, it's frustrating to see elements in images which aren't up to the expectations from IL2's successor.

For instance, I'd prefer updates like "Working on enhancement to cloud generation code to allow for flat bottommed clouds." or "Enhancing maps to include sandy beaches with rocks along coastlines." or "clouds now generated automatically over thermal producing areas" or "integrated optimized forest generation code in stable branch" etc.

This would probably reduce distressed posts by panicked fans when they see WIP imagery. Might also allow Oleg to talk in greated detail about more 'revolutionary' features without giving away implementation details.

+1

[philip.ed]

I agree as well. Although it'd be nice to pair that info with a few screenies ;)

[CRO_Adriatic]

Every news are good news.
Oleg is alive and kicking, and that is only important info I need.