Much needed new dll's

[gprr]

Hi all

Is anybody working on new set of core dll's to support ATI 5XXX cards?
As I see it, we have at least 1 year of playing IL-2 at full throtle(Look at the future patches planned) And many of us have new powerfull ATI cards which have "stupid" slow downs around explosions and firing and more,These problems need to be fixed - it is only fair for ATI users.
I think we are all here to stay with this fantastic game which have more life to it, wether the problems will be taken care or not:(:-) but new dll set will make me and a lot of others happier:rolleyes:

gprr

[Flanker35M]

S!

Team Daidalos has no plans of making new DLL's as it is out of their scope and resources. It would be up to Oleg's team to make them and now they are tied up with SoW, so not very likely soon anyway. It would be great to have more support for ATI, but as we speak ATI is working on driver issues with IL-2.

What I have read from forums around it seems this nVidia/ATI thing is just a matter of who smooches devs best. Both brands can do same tricks and effects, but some devs have decided to implement code to prevent stuff working on ATI for example. Because if you fool an application to think you are using nVidia, the effects and all magically work..Go figure. Needs no rocket scientist to see that business and money speaks there a lot.

But back to topic. We can wish Oleg & Team could spare some time or help TD to release a set of more updated DLL-files :)

[Feuerfalke]

Actually the instructions are via DirectX, so there is little difference on what a dev implements into a code and how that is rendered on a graphics card. The difference is mostly the driver and setup and as such, this is also the best choice to avoid problems: Simply deactivate additional features the graphics card offer, which are beyond the normal scope of DX and rendering instructions, like Catalyst AI, which I've never ever experienced to produce anything positive for any game or application.

On the other hand, it's no real secret that modern gaming-cards no longer support older features for OpenGL and DX. And IL2 definitely IS old. That doesn't change the fact that it's still a good game, especially due to Oleg's prophetic abilities to implement graphical features that were not even supported at the time it was released. But these features are not optimized very much. If you have enabled Effects=2, this will still cause modern graphics-cards a lot of trouble, simply because it's based on stuff that was not available at that time and causes more trouble than it helps, now.

I guess that's the third part of this problem: The state of mind. Just because something is newer doesn't mean it will make things better in all aspects. You can't just plug a Porsche Cayman-Engine into a Porsche 356 and expect that oldie to perform as well as the new Cayman. And then just changing tires won't help it.

After all, limitations like these were the exact reason why Oleg started to build a new engine for SoW.

[KG26_Alpha]

Hi all

Is anybody working on new set of core dll's to support ATI 5XXX cards?
As I see it, we have at least 1 year of playing IL-2 at full throtle(Look at the future patches planned) And many of us have new powerfull ATI cards which have "stupid" slow downs around explosions and firing and more,These problems need to be fixed - it is only fair for ATI users.
I think we are all here to stay with this fantastic game which have more life to it, wether the problems will be taken care or not:(:-) but new dll set will make me and a lot of others happier:rolleyes:

gprr

It wont be a .dll problem.

Its a ATI driver issue.

If you want more life out of IL2 1946 buy an Nvidia card.

[Flanker35M]

S!

Alpha, there is no need to go nVidia just because of IL-2 ;) ATI is already looking at the issues with their drivers. And there is some additional information from The Man himself what is causing this. So I will just wait for the updates from ATI. Until then will use the workarounds for IL-2, other games just work out of the box :) So a very satisfied customer of ATI 5870HD..and DirectX 11 titles look stunning ;)

Feuerfalke. True what you wrote. I do not use Catalyst AI either. From what I understood it is for CrossFire to determine the mode of it, so pretty useless for a single GPU. Otherwise ATI performs admirably for me at least.

It is just funny to see that if you fake the DeviceID of an ATI card to be nVidia, with ATT for example, in certain games running DirectX it enables all features. ATI can handle them without a problem, but this stupid war GFX brands have just hampers gaming industry more than helps it. OpenGL is another issue. Not a programmer myself, but would it even be possible to update IL-2's OpenGL instructions to a more modern one? With DLL's you can achieve some things, but not cover all..from what I have understood.

[Feuerfalke]

Catalyst AI features advanced texture filtering and image enhancements. It has nothing to do with running a game in crossfire-mode or not.

Switching the ID with ATT does not "enable" features. It just changes the way DX communicates them with the graphics card. As such some features might look different, maybe even "better", but it's usually slower and it decreases rendering-speed, as some features are rendered in emulation-mode. On older games, of course, this emulation won't have much of an impact with modern graphics cards.


To the ATI vs nVidia fanwar: Both have their pros and cons. It may not be satisfying, but it is as simple as that. Some games work better with card x, some with card y. And this not necessarily only changes from ATI to nVidia, but also between driver versions, chipsets and of course with the combination of hardware you use with the cards. I used both, ATI and nVidia and I have made many good and bad experiences with either.

[nearmiss]

This won't help if you already have an ATI card

Going back and forth between nVidia and ATI was pretty well the thing we all had to do in the past. The last ATI card I used successfully was the 9800 PRO for AGP. It was probably the best ATI card I ever used.

ATI got bought out by AMD, but I think they must have fired the driver devs that were with ATI.

I pay very close attention to postings about video cards, because you can almost buy a new computer for the price of one card.

Now I am with nVidia and I am very pleased with performance. WHen I build a new system I will spend several days or possibly weeks reading everything I can on upgrading my video card/s.

Having wait on someone to devise a fix or dlls for your video card is bad.

I didn't write this to knock any card mfgr, etc. It's just a tip to be very wary about your Video card purchases. If you know all this, good. There are some that will read this that don't know.

There are third party VC drivers floating around. I have used Omega drivers many times, but right now nVidia drivers are working for me. That may not be the case, if I upgrade my system.

[Flanker35M]

S!

I tend to disagree a bit here as there are many posts that if Catalyst AI is on Standard there is only one GPU seen in XFire setups, with Advanced they both are there, some say AFR mode or similar. Also XFire users say that perfromance is less with Cat AI on Std rather than Adv. So it might have a relation to XFire anyway.


As of the feature faking the ID. These fakes were tested on new titles and enabled some new shadows and smoke without a performance loss. Take a look at Rage3D forums for example ;) EA games titles are mentioned there among others. I did ask how to do it and it had no effect in IL-2 as I run in OGL except slow down. So true these fakes can cause performance loss, but it is said also that these smokes in question over Rage3D are fully compatible with ATI, not a nVidia exclusive gimmick.

This war between brands is just so stupid. But what can one do? Nothing actually. I run with ATI and happy with it. I have used nVidia as well up to 280GTX, was happy with it too. So not a fanboi here ;) As nearmiss said, study what suits you best and get it. Brand can be whatever :)

As of DLL's..there are some older ones that had ATI optimizations so I dare to claim that tweaking the DLL files would have an effect on the game, but biggest impact is with the drivers AND dll's combined. Will wait and see what these ATI guys come up with regarding the driver issues with IL-2, they are working on it.

[Qpassa]

I agree with you,if ATI doesnt fix the issues I will buy a Nvidia 285GTX ( not a ATI 5850-5870)

[Flanker35M]

S!

Qpassa..why 285GTX when SoW will be DirectX 11? If you want a nVidia card, then wait for Fermi being released this spring. Should be fast and support DirectX 11 like ATI. Bashing ATI for having problems because of IL-2..well..no comment ;) And waiting for the driver release from ATI that should fix the problems we have at the moment.

[Blackdog_kt]

I've had nVidia cards for a long time (used to play IL2 with a Gforce 4MX before upgrading to a 6600GT), but on my new i7 rig bought last spring i went for a 4870. It was a deffective one and it gave up the ghost during the Xmas holiday season, so i bought a 4890 and waiting for the refund (i had a 3 year warranty).

The way i see it, i feel like Ati cards are generally faster on a processing level and with more video RAM, but they might suffer from drivers/support issues. On the other hand, i've been reading some things on Fermi and without being an expert it seems like it will be a very expensive card for not so much of a gain. For me this is important, because i never buy top of the line cards. I wait until they go from best to second best before i buy them, because that means i get to pay around 200 euros instead of 350 if i simply wait a few months.

[Qpassa]

Fermi eat too Watts,600W at fully charge,and this is not an option :I

[gprr]

Fermi eat too Watts,600W at fully charge,and this is not an option :I

Belive its 300W max per 480 card...

Hi all and thanks for some heads up and down I think:rolleyes:
Also waiting for ATI works on the driver but looks like their main focus is on artifects issue / not prformance problems(wish I'm wrong)
End of December 2009 I bought new I7 920 based rig, with 5850 card.Option given to me to replace the card within 6 months and use it's shop market value at that time for other chosen card.
So still have time to "correct" my buy:confused:
I do like my 5850 and its image quality and the original plan was to buy second one later when needed but these slowdowns when atacking busy airbase in vanila or moded game is real pain in my eye.
Runing I7 920 at 3.74gh improves things but the problem remains big,Hope ATI do their work and maybe I'll change to 5870 and one more later:)

Cheers
gprr

[Flanker35M]

S!

The driver issue affects performance as well as the artifacts, so waiting for the update eagerly. ATI has no problems running IL-2 now either if you count out the blocky texts etc. I can run it at 1920x1200 32-bit OGL at Perfect with 24fps min 296fps max and 97fps avg on Black Death track..so hardly poor performance there ;) And I run on a "lesser" rig than your i7 920, an AMD 965 BE..

[gprr]

S!

The driver issue affects performance as well as the artifacts, so waiting for the update eagerly. ATI has no problems running IL-2 now either if you count out the blocky texts etc. I can run it at 1920x1200 32-bit OGL at Perfect with 24fps min 296fps max and 97fps avg on Black Death track..so hardly poor performance there ;) And I run on a "lesser" rig than your i7 920, an AMD 965 BE..

Hi Flanker

Just benched it again on 409m vanila and got: Min-31 Max-238 Avg-96.793
With Water=2,Effects=1,AA=12,AF=Aplication control,TripleBuffer=on,1920*1200.
Thats said ,this card price is 2 times NV 250gts but its Min fps is about equal and even less, also no slowdowns like my 5850:(
Folowed your posts here,ubi and AMD forums and do hope ATI drows something good out of their hat;)

gprr

[Qpassa]

S!

The driver issue affects performance as well as the artifacts, so waiting for the update eagerly. ATI has no problems running IL-2 now either if you count out the blocky texts etc. I can run it at 1920x1200 32-bit OGL at Perfect with 24fps min 296fps max and 97fps avg on Black Death track..so hardly poor performance there ;) And I run on a "lesser" rig than your i7 920, an AMD 965 BE..
So it works fine with 5870?

[Flanker35M]

S!

Yes, IL2 works with ATI. But for now before the driver update you have to use some "workarounds" to get rid of the "blue hue" and "blocky text" which are the most striking errors when using ATI.

Blue hue workaround is very easy to solve, just open conf.ini and set UseVertexArrays=0 or in IL-2 setup disable Use Vertex arrays and you are done. No more blue hue.

Blocky text has 2 workarounds. First one is to use either Catalyst 9.10 drivers OR drop the atioglxx.dll from the 9.10 package to IL-2 root. Then you have no blocky text. Second workaround is to launch game, play a track and wait for the blocky text to clear. After that it does not appear again.

So the most annoying bug is this blocky text as you can not join games in Multiplayer via HL or similar as the game loads graphics BEFORE the GUI and it is the graphics that cause the blocky text. So basically if not using the dll file in IL2 folder you have to start game, play a track and then join server via IP from IL2 Multiplayer.

Third and least desireable option to clear blocky text without using workaround files etc. is to set HardwareShaders=0 thus disabling Perfect mode in OpenGL and use Excellent instead. Or use DirectX mode that looks..pale and no-one uses it anyway ;)

So ATI does work with IL-2 with some problems with it. Performance is good though. So the driver update will hopefully solve these annoying bugs.

[gprr]

S!

Yes, IL2 works with ATI. But for now before the driver update you have to use some "workarounds" to get rid of the "blue hue" and "blocky text" which are the most striking errors when using ATI.

Blue hue workaround is very easy to solve, just open conf.ini and set UseVertexArrays=0 or in IL-2 setup disable Use Vertex arrays and you are done. No more blue hue.

Blocky text has 2 workarounds. First one is to use either Catalyst 9.10 drivers OR drop the atioglxx.dll from the 9.10 package to IL-2 root. Then you have no blocky text. Second workaround is to launch game, play a track and wait for the blocky text to clear. After that it does not appear again.

So the most annoying bug is this blocky text as you can not join games in Multiplayer via HL or similar as the game loads graphics BEFORE the GUI and it is the graphics that cause the blocky text. So basically if not using the dll file in IL2 folder you have to start game, play a track and then join server via IP from IL2 Multiplayer.

Third and least desireable option to clear blocky text without using workaround files etc. is to set HardwareShaders=0 thus disabling Perfect mode in OpenGL and use Excellent instead. Or use DirectX mode that looks..pale and no-one uses it anyway ;)

So ATI does work with IL-2 with some problems with it. Performance is good though. So the driver update will hopefully solve these annoying bugs.

Hi Flanker

1.5850 is really good but relatively to NV cards it "suffers" in this game.
2.Searchin before and after buying I came to know all ATI tweaks and learn my conf.ini and CCC by heart:)

Cheers
gprr

[WhiteSnake]

Il2-1946 looks better on my ATI Notebook (HD4570) than it does on my SLI rig.

Luckly i dont have any of the blocky text isues etc. on it, and also failed to reproduce the isue on a friends rig with a HD5870 wen i ran it from my external harddrive to test it (only edited My Conf.ini from 1366x768 to 1920x1080 resolution and changed his CCC setings*)

But a lot of other people do have these isues and didnt report them by using the Catalyst Feedback form: http://www.amdsurveys.com/se.ashx?s=5A1E27D27E29B0E3

Now a couple of us from UBI.forums got a lot of people to report the problem that way and the head of the ATI Catalyst Crew said they where gonna look into the isue so hopefully it will be solved for 10.4.

Anyway these where the setings used together with the 9.12 OpenGL Hotfix drivers, These probably will not fix the blocky text isue if you get that but might be worth a try.

*Best Quality Settings for ATI Radeon HD3000 series and later Only:

[Render_OpenGL]
TexQual=3
TexMipFilter=3
TexCompress=0
TexFlags.UseDither=1
TexFlags.UseAlpha=0
TexFlags.UseIndex=0
TexFlags.PolygonStipple=0
TexFlags.UseClampedSprites=0
TexFlags.DrawLandByTriangles=0
TexFlags.UseVertexArrays=0
TexFlags.DisableAPIExtensions=0
TexFlags.ARBMultitextureExt=1
TexFlags.TexEnvCombineExt=1
TexFlags.SecondaryColorExt=1
TexFlags.VertexArrayExt=0
TexFlags.ClipHintExt=0
TexFlags.UsePaletteExt=0
TexFlags.TexAnisotropicExt=1
TexFlags.TexCompressARBExt=1

TexFlags.TexEnvCombine4NV=0
TexFlags.TexEnvCombineDot3=1
TexFlags.DepthClampNV=0
TexFlags.SeparateSpecular=1
TexFlags.TextureShaderNV=0

HardwareShaders=1

Shadows=2
Specular=2
SpecularLight=2
DiffuseLight=2
DynamicalLights=1
MeshDetail=2
VisibilityDistance=3

Sky=2
Forest=3
LandShading=3
LandDetails=2
LandGeom=3
TexLarge=1
TexLandQual=3
TexLandLarge=1

VideoSetupId=17
Water=2
Effects=2
ForceShaders1x=0

PolygonOffsetFactor=-0.0625
PolygonOffsetUnits=-1.0


Recomended CCC Settings:

Anti Aliasing on Highest settings (edge detect 12x).
Anisotropic Filtering at Aplication Controled.
Catalist A.I. Disabled
Detaillevel Mipmap at Max Quality
Vertical Refreshing (Vsync) at Off/Aplication Controled.
Adaptive Anti-Aliasing Enabled (has a big impact on FPS so i usualy recomend to Disable it).
OpenGL Triple Buffering Enabled.

Note:
TexFlags.UseVertexArrays=0 and TexFlags.VertexArrayExt=0 are 2 Settings that have to be Disabled ("0") for ATI Radeon HD cards!
Just like TexFlags.TexEnvCombine4NV=0, TexFlags.DepthClampNV=0, and TexFlags.TextureShaderNV=0 wich are nVidia only settings.
Water=2 is the Highest setting for ATI, but that looks atleast as good as Water=3 for nVidia cards if not better.


@gprr: Fermi GTX-480 is 600 Watts, 42 amps, 12 volts for a single card.

[AKA_Tenn]

I use an ATI 5850 and i got no big problems running IL2 on perfect mode in openGL... i did have to swap out the .dll and change a bunch of settings in the conf.ini... I'll edit this post with the conf.ini changes i made when i get home

the only issue i have is with the mods... if i don't use the default or modded light clouds then my clouds are pretty much completely invisible from just outside them, and still grey u out when u go in them... so needless to say... i use the modded light clouds.

and catalyst settings don't effect weather the game looks proper or not... but if ur computer is shitty... like ur using a pentium 4 processor with 1 GB of crappy value ram, but thought getting a bad ass videocard would compensate for it... then u will get bad framerates

[gprr]

Il2-1946 looks better on my ATI Notebook (HD4570) than it does on my SLI rig.
Water=2
@gprr: Fermi GTX-480 is 600 Watts, 42 amps, 12 volts for a single card.

HI
Effects=2 Is not reccomended by Oleg or modders,it is 100% trouble maker,use 1 or 0.

NV leaked power supply reccomendation for Fermi based system-total system power onsumptiom is indeed 600W,nothing stormy about that,the card itself may draw up to 300W max,5970-294W, 5870-188W, 5850-151W.
If you buy ATI 5970,you are reccomended to use 750W P/S.

gprr

[Flanker35M]

S!

Got a Corsair 650W PSU, very good and solid one. No problems handling 5870. And if Fermi really hogs twice or even more wattage than ATI..kind of interesting. And the price will be high, NV has shelled out a lot of money on it and it is late, pressure to get cash flow in instead of out is now needed. Btu for sure will be a good card, no doubt about that.

WhiteSnake, this blocky thing is really strange. I wonder what rig your friend uses, it might be down to a component or setting in BIOS even..

[gprr]

S!

Got a Corsair 650W PSU, very good and solid one. No problems handling 5870. And if Fermi really hogs twice or even more wattage than ATI..kind of interesting. And the price will be high, NV has shelled out a lot of money on it and it is late, pressure to get cash flow in instead of out is now needed. Btu for sure will be a good card, no doubt about that.

WhiteSnake, this blocky thing is really strange. I wonder what rig your friend uses, it might be down to a component or setting in BIOS even..

Hello Flanker

I absolutly love the relatively low power consumption of ATI single GPU cards. With IL-2 probs in mined but brighter future hopes for Sow coupled wit 5XXX cards - my dream is to have two of these 5870 babies sucking from my Corsair 750TX(not much hedroom left though:wink:)

Somewere saw you are running WoP,are cities and explosions well renderd under your rig?

Cheers
gprr

[Flanker35M]

S!

I have said many times that IL-2 is the ONLY game I have issues with running an ATI card. Others, like WoP run flawlessly and very well without a glitch. Even Silent Hunter 5 is a smooth ride :) ATI has managed to squeeze out good performance without excessive power consumption. If I can run 2 x 5870 with consumption of one Fermi roughly there is a huge difference how much I have to shell out on my system. A really good PSU is NOT cheap and add to that the hefty price tag and you got a lot of invested money for how much perfromance increase? That is to be seen yet.

But as said, ATI works on issue and it will help IL-2 for sure :)

[AKA_Tenn]

[Render_OpenGL]
TexQual=3
TexMipFilter=3
TexCompress=0
TexFlags.UseDither=0
TexFlags.UseAlpha=0
TexFlags.UseIndex=0
TexFlags.PolygonStipple=1
TexFlags.UseClampedSprites=0
TexFlags.DrawLandByTriangles=1
TexFlags.UseVertexArrays=1
TexFlags.DisableAPIExtensions=0
TexFlags.ARBMultitextureExt=1
TexFlags.TexEnvCombineExt=1
TexFlags.SecondaryColorExt=1
TexFlags.VertexArrayExt=1
TexFlags.ClipHintExt=1
TexFlags.UsePaletteExt=1
TexFlags.TexAnisotropicExt=1
TexFlags.TexCompressARBExt=1

TexFlags.TexEnvCombine4NV=0
TexFlags.TexEnvCombineDot3=1
TexFlags.DepthClampNV=1
TexFlags.SeparateSpecular=1
TexFlags.TextureShaderNV=0

HardwareShaders=1

Shadows=2
Specular=2
SpecularLight=2
DiffuseLight=2
DynamicalLights=1
MeshDetail=2
VisibilityDistance=3

Sky=2
Forest=2
LandShading=3
LandDetails=2

LandGeom=2
TexLarge=1
TexLandQual=3
TexLandLarge=1

VideoSetupId=17
Water=1
Effects=1
ForceShaders1x=0

PolygonOffsetFactor=-0.15
PolygonOffsetUnits=-3.0

[PE_Tigar]

How about crashing? I've tried all Catalysts builds since Win 7 Beta came out, but my 2x4850 crashes with all of them after 9.5, except if I put 9.5 atioglxx.dll into the Il2 1946 folder. My rig is fairly dated (C2D 6850, 4GB RAM, 2x4850 in xFire, Windows 7 x64). In my view ATi has really dropped the ball on this one, the only flight sim that has no problems with ATi cards now is X-Plane, all the others that I play (Il2, FSX, WoP, LOMAC: FC, ROF, DCS: BS) are crashing, or have artifacts, or are running incredibly slow... and this has been going on for longer than a year now. Building a new rig just for flight sims may be an option... although I don't like that idea frankly, I already have a huge pile of electronics at home.

[AKA_Tenn]

how many watts is ur PSU... I have a 750w and I'm using a 1x5850 windows 7 x64 i got 4GB of ram... and a E6550 overclocked to 3.4GHz.. no games crash... i play Aion, CoDMW2, GRID, Bioshock 2, GTA4, Dirt 2, IL2 of coarse, DCS:BS... and other games when i get bored... IL2 is the only game i used to have problems with...

I used to have a cheap sparkle 650w and my computer crashed left and right... at first i thought it was my motherboard so i bought a new one... but it still did it... so i bought new ram... still did it... shoulda realized it was cause my comp just wasn't getting enough juice so i went for a more expensive PSU and got a name brand coolmaster 4-rail 750w sustained PSU with >80% efficiency and my computer ran 10x faster and never crashed :D

[gprr]

AKA_Tenn

If you are really using 5850,your conf.in should look like this:

[Render_OpenGL]
TexQual=3
TexMipFilter=3
TexCompress=0
TexFlags.UseDither=1>>>>> can be 0-heavier on the rig when looking far
TexFlags.UseAlpha=0
TexFlags.UseIndex=0
TexFlags.PolygonStipple=0
TexFlags.UseClampedSprites=0
TexFlags.DrawLandByTriangles=0
TexFlags.UseVertexArrays=0
TexFlags.DisableAPIExtensions=0
TexFlags.ARBMultitextureExt=1
TexFlags.TexEnvCombineExt=1
TexFlags.SecondaryColorExt=1
TexFlags.VertexArrayExt=0
TexFlags.ClipHintExt=1
TexFlags.UsePaletteExt=0
TexFlags.TexAnisotropicExt=1
TexFlags.TexCompressARBExt=1

TexFlags.TexEnvCombine4NV=0
TexFlags.TexEnvCombineDot3=1
TexFlags.DepthClampNV=0
TexFlags.SeparateSpecular=1
TexFlags.TextureShaderNV=0

HardwareShaders=1

Shadows=2
Specular=2
SpecularLight=2
DiffuseLight=2
DynamicalLights=1
MeshDetail=2
VisibilityDistance=3

Sky=2
Forest=3
LandShading=3
LandDetails=2

LandGeom=3
TexLarge=1
TexLandQual=3
TexLandLarge=1

VideoSetupId=17
Water=2
Effects=1
ForceShaders1x=0

PolygonOffsetFactor=-0.0625
PolygonOffsetUnits=-3.0

Your current, is a mix for ATI+nVIDIA together

gprr

[kimosabi]

Thanks for posting that, gprr. What is PolygonOffsetFactor and PolygonOffsetUnits? I don't have those in my conf.ini...

Would that setup work on a 5870 as well BTW?

[KG26_Alpha]

How about crashing? I've tried all Catalysts builds since Win 7 Beta came out, but my 2x4850 crashes with all of them after 9.5, except if I put 9.5 atioglxx.dll into the Il2 1946 folder. My rig is fairly dated (C2D 6850, 4GB RAM, 2x4850 in xFire, Windows 7 x64). In my view ATi has really dropped the ball on this one, the only flight sim that has no problems with ATi cards now is X-Plane, all the others that I play (Il2, FSX, WoP, LOMAC: FC, ROF, DCS: BS) are crashing, or have artifacts, or are running incredibly slow... and this has been going on for longer than a year now. Building a new rig just for flight sims may be an option... although I don't like that idea frankly, I already have a huge pile of electronics at home.

Perhaps some one here will convince you otherwise ( like the Iraq war minister ) in denial of any problems.

****** ******

ATI are not the choice of the young gamers out there at the moment so its not just an IL2 problem with ATI, I supply and build PC's and the ATI returns are getting serious now, I can't RMA an ATI card without a fault, what do I tell the manufacturer ? "Sorry cards being returned because the drivers are not good". They don't accept RMA under these circumstances.

I'm not saying Nvidia are any worse or better but for IL2 and other flight sims they are at the moment the only choice unless you are an ATI fanboi and wont consider a move to the darkside :)

[Flanker35M]

S!

I have ZERO crashes with my card. Every other game works as intended except IL-2. I am not sure why, but I do not overclock or anything. I do not run all kind of crap in the background or whatever. I do not tweak anything I do not know about. So far all good. Biggest reason for hardware NOT working can still be between the keyboard and chair. Not many of us willingly tell that I did this and that and then the system became unstable..Easier to blame manufacturer or someone else than self ;)

Alpha, I am not a fanboi of any brand. And ATI is not any harder to use than nVidia. All so far has worked OK. Either way, nVidia or ATI are both good cards for gaming.

[KG26_Alpha]

Alpha, I am not a fanboi of any brand. And ATI is not any harder to use than nVidia. All so far has worked OK. Either way, nVidia or ATI are both good cards for gaming.

I'm no fanboi either, I just stock what sells, I cant afford to have high end GPU's sitting around unsold.


What will be interesting is this

Asustek Computer seems to be the first company that decided to create a higher-performance version of the Radeon HD 5970 graphics board.
Asus Ares graphics card features two ATI Radeon HD 5870 graphics processors (with 1600 stream processors) running at 850MHz with 256-bit bus and 4GB of GDDR5 memory running at 4800MHz.
The graphics board may provide 20% higher performance compared to ATI’s original Radeon HD 5970.
The card features two one dual-link DVI-I connector, DisplayPort connector as well as mini-DisplayPort outputs.

I'll probably get one for the fun of having it in stock and do some testing, but I don't think I'll have too many buyers.

[gprr]

[

[gprr]

Kimosubi

These are NV/ATI settings...from ubi forums:

"From Hunter82 in the post patch thread:

quote:
If you experience flickering textures locate this line:

PolygonOffsetFactor=-0.15
PolygonOffsetUnits=-3.0

And set to as listed above"

FromTully_:
"The polygon offset stuff controls the spacing between objects and secondary textures. It has no bearing on frame rate, but can be important for rendering quality of distant ground "features", specifically airfields. The runways are an texture overlaid on the standard ground texture. To render properly at a distance they have to be spaced slightly above the ground and the polygon offset settings control the spacing"

2nd all experts say it will work for your 5870(with atioglxx.dll in your il2 root folder to avoid blocky text)

[Flanker35M]

S!

Alpha, the new 5970 is being made by XFX too. A 4Gb version :) I would love to test one in my rig to see if XFire really is worth it, as both brands have their share of problems with more than one GPU enabled.

[AKA_Tenn]

AKA_Tenn

If you are really using 5850,your conf.in should look like this:

[Render_OpenGL]
TexQual=3
TexMipFilter=3
TexCompress=0
TexFlags.UseDither=1>>>>> can be 0-heavier on the rig when looking far
TexFlags.UseAlpha=0
TexFlags.UseIndex=0
TexFlags.PolygonStipple=0
TexFlags.UseClampedSprites=0
TexFlags.DrawLandByTriangles=0
TexFlags.UseVertexArrays=0
TexFlags.DisableAPIExtensions=0
TexFlags.ARBMultitextureExt=1
TexFlags.TexEnvCombineExt=1
TexFlags.SecondaryColorExt=1
TexFlags.VertexArrayExt=0
TexFlags.ClipHintExt=1
TexFlags.UsePaletteExt=0
TexFlags.TexAnisotropicExt=1
TexFlags.TexCompressARBExt=1

TexFlags.TexEnvCombine4NV=0
TexFlags.TexEnvCombineDot3=1
TexFlags.DepthClampNV=0
TexFlags.SeparateSpecular=1
TexFlags.TextureShaderNV=0

HardwareShaders=1

Shadows=2
Specular=2
SpecularLight=2
DiffuseLight=2
DynamicalLights=1
MeshDetail=2
VisibilityDistance=3

Sky=2
Forest=3
LandShading=3
LandDetails=2

LandGeom=3
TexLarge=1
TexLandQual=3
TexLandLarge=1

VideoSetupId=17
Water=2
Effects=1
ForceShaders1x=0

PolygonOffsetFactor=-0.0625
PolygonOffsetUnits=-3.0

Your current, is a mix for ATI+nVIDIA together

gprr

do you even know what dither is?!? all it means its putting a red pixel next to a yellow pixel to make orange...
http://www.webkinesia.com/online/graphics/images/color/dither.gif

if u turn dither off it just puts an orange pixel... and im using an HD5850 with 12xAA and 16x AF and solid
90FPS with my current settings also some nvidia settings also work with ATI cards... i turned on and off all the settings... some do work...

and for u nvidia fanboys a HD5850 is anywhere between 9 and 15 percent faster (depending on the game) than a Nvidia 280GTX

[gprr]

AKA_Tenn

Go to ubi forums and search for dither effects/problems like one here:
http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/49310655/m/1021023582?r=6681074582#6681074582

2nd do what you want but it is advised chill out.:cool:

gprr

[kimosabi]

Kimosubi

These are NV/ATI settings...from ubi forums:

"From Hunter82 in the post patch thread:

quote:
If you experience flickering textures locate this line:

PolygonOffsetFactor=-0.15
PolygonOffsetUnits=-3.0

And set to as listed above"

FromTully_:
"The polygon offset stuff controls the spacing between objects and secondary textures. It has no bearing on frame rate, but can be important for rendering quality of distant ground "features", specifically airfields. The runways are an texture overlaid on the standard ground texture. To render properly at a distance they have to be spaced slightly above the ground and the polygon offset settings control the spacing"

2nd all experts say it will work for your 5870(with atioglxx.dll in your il2 root folder to avoid blocky text)

The problem is that I do not have PolygonOffsetFactor & PolygonOffsetUnits in my conf.ini. Like I mentioned earlier. Thanks though.

[gprr]

The problem is that I do not have PolygonOffsetFactor & PolygonOffsetUnits in my conf.ini. Like I mentioned earlier. Thanks though.

In this case the game will use its defaults but you can just set it if you want and be safe:)

[brando]

The problem is that I do not have PolygonOffsetFactor & PolygonOffsetUnits in my conf.ini. Like I mentioned earlier. Thanks though.

It's okay to write these lines into your conf.ini file. You just need to be sure the syntax is correct so that the command works

I have these settings:

PolygonOffsetFactor=-0.0625
PolygonOffsetUnits=-1.0

B

[=PF=Coastie]

Yeah, these two settings were changed up a bit over the years by Oleg. I believe it started with the famous flashing Railroad stations from a distance in the big cities. There were also some problems with Airfield runways/tarmacs flashing from a distance. He changed the settings for ATI users to the above ones. The defaults were the -.15 and -3.0 ones.

I'm surprised Protos hasn't made an appearence in this thread yet, LOL!

About Catalyst AI...
It was originally designed as preloaded "optimizations" for various games/apps. I think as drivers/hardware change they only do this for the most popular ones now. But I do know for sure having AI on advanced was mandatory for ATI X850 series and earlier cards with 6.11 drivers or older.

It seems it only causes problems with newer hardware and older games now.

[brando]

Yeah, these two settings were changed up a bit over the years by Oleg. I believe it started with the famous flashing Railroad stations from a distance in the big cities. There were also some problems with Airfield runways/tarmacs flashing from a distance. He changed the settings for ATI users to the above ones. The defaults were the -.15 and -3.0 ones.

I'm surprised Protos hasn't made an appearence in this thread yet, LOL!

About Catalyst AI...
It was originally designed as preloaded "optimizations" for various games/apps. I think as drivers/hardware change they only do this for the most popular ones now. But I do know for sure having AI on advanced was mandatory for ATI X850 series and earlier cards with 6.11 drivers or older.

It seems it only causes problems with newer hardware and older games now.

Yeah, the flashing railyards was what made me change those two settings and I've kept using them ever since; they work so well. I think I was using a 256Mb 9800 (Ati) Pro back when I changed those settings; I'm sure it was about the time I started using Perfect mode for gameplay! Things have sure improved since then :D

B

[WhiteSnake]

I got an nVidia SLI rig and a ATI Notebook, and im going with ATI for my next build, even my Notebook (HD4570) makes this game look better than any nVidia card ive seen so far.

Anyway keep in mind you can not use SoundHardware Acceleration and Effects with this game under Windows 7, has to be disabled in the Game and in Wndows, If not you get problems like Lower FPS or even Crashes.
A lot of people than usualy blame the Videocard or Drivers while its really DirectX DirectSound(3D) wich doesnt have Hardware Suport under Windows 7 and Vista.
Only OpenAL Sound still works like it always did, but with a lot of games like IL2 still using DirectX DirectSound(3D) sme people get problems.
(Might help for PE_Tigar)

More explained on it:
http://connect.creativelabs.com/openal/OpenAL%20Wiki/OpenAL%C2%AE%20and%20Windows%20Vista%E2%84%A2.aspx


AKA_Tenn nice you try to explain somethin but im not sure if you understand what Dither is/does your self in this game.
Wikipedia wich i normaly wouldnt refer to does exactly explain and show (pictures of cat) what it is and does in this game:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dither#Digital_photography_and_image_processing

[13th Hsqn Protos]

I'm surprised Protos hasn't made an appearence in this thread yet, LOL!



Don't be a douche coastie ;)
Since you rang ....

Beta testing crappy ATI drivers years ago .... doesn't make you an authority on IL2 performance. We have both been around the IL2 scene a LONG time .... same with Alpha and some others.

You need to deal ..... ATI drivers BLOW in general - and most particularly for this game specifically. Its not going to get fixed on a 10 year old game and you need to stop pretending that it will. Your credibility in the matter is tainted ..... cause you don't own and use both. Some of us in this thread do/ and do it for a living.

I don't care that you pimp one over the other .... but give accurate information. New people/less technically savvy pilots read these threads and make judgments based on the information/lack there of in them.

You can't tell people that all there problems will be solved if they just use an old atioglxx file ect ...... YOU ALSO NEED TO TELL THEM that there is a MEMORY LEAK with that file.

For new pilots or ones who just don't understand hardware:

1. ATI cards are excellent hardware based products.
2. That same product has HORRIFICALLY bad drivers.
3. The atioglxx file has an ACKNOWLEDGED MEMORY LEAK - yes it will fix texture corrupting .... but what good is that if your game will crash later during a mission ???
4. There are not going to be new dlls released for this old game.
5. Oleg has a long standing relationship with NVidia and the game runs better on those cards. Fact.
6. Game developers code directly for Intel/Nvidia .... its not up for debate. Its just a REALITY of game design.
7. Nvidia has light years better crossplatform support - should that be important to you. Think Linux/Mac.
8. Ati drivers do not allow you to set a game specific profile setup. You must download UNSUPPORTED software such as ATI traytools or other to set AA/AF for example.
9. Idiots like Flanker will tell you to start a track or other for a few seconds before you fly .... while this option will work for single player .... you will be holding your 'joystick' for online.

Ultimately what you buy will be personal preference. I have had ONLY ati cards for my whole IL2 career ..... but there comes a time when the hassle of 'adjusting' drivers ect becomes too much work.
That point came for me with the 9 series drivers. I went to the dark side NV and I love it.

Readers can make their own choices ..... but be informed before making your decisions. For myself I am on to my next Nvidia card. A EVGA 285gtx .... which will allow me to 'upgrade' for free to a Fermi when they come out later this month.

Do your own math and don't let a bunch of ATI blowhards set the agenda for you.

[=PF=Coastie]

Thank you Protos, I knew you could not resist such a thread as this.

I have NEVER stated to be any sort of expert or guru and still don't. I only like to help people and I favor helping those with similar hardware because I know it better, especially when it comes to this game. I have stated this publicly many times and here again.

I am very proud of the fact that I was one of a very small group of ATI beta testers for 2 years. That does not make me an expert, but it is something to be proud of. It's a shame the program folded, but life goes on.

I do NOT have the memory leak problem with the 9.10 atioglxx file. I play for 3+ hours every Friday and Sunday night without ever disconecting on a server with 60-80 people in it on one continuous map(the Italy-NA map). Do I doubt there could be on some peoples rigs, no. There are many, many configurations of hardware/software and settings that can trigger something like this. Heck, it could even be the map. There are several maps that are known to cause memory leaks.

Nvidia has it's own problems with drivers too that are actually burning up cards due to fans not funtioning properly. They have pulled their latest WHQL drivers from their site with a public statement saying this. There are many reports of this going back to earlier drivers also. Does this mean it happens to everyone, no.

Lastly, I have never stated that ATI WILL fix this. I have only said they are looking into it which is pretty cool for a 10 year old game and I can't really ask for more than that.

My stand with ATI/AMD is simple. I am an underdog kind of guy. I hate bullies that push others around with there big muscles and piles of money. Very simple. Is this a flawed logic on a business stand point, yeah. But it's who I am and I am sticking to it.

Love ya man, keep up the great work!

[13th Hsqn Protos]

Whats to resist ?

I was just lurking this thread .... and SUDDENLY see your invitation :) with my name on it.
Obviously you like me :-P

The problem with the memory leak is documented on the ATI forums.

As you say people may or may not have issues. I had 8gb of ram and a 2gb video card so it only happened to me a few times. But it did happen.

I notice that you don't answer any of my technical points. Mostly cause you can't. Instead you focus on the 'personal' side of your argument.
Its a technical discussion so those kinds of things don't sway me.

Way to provide those facts :heart: Thanks for coming out!

[kimosabi]

I've only used ATI on this game. First the 4850x2 and now the 5870. Works brilliantly in directx but IDK about openGL. I started tweaking it for openGL but I don't have the patience for it, especially when the differences seem to be so small. Couldn't care less about profilers either, 10secs in CCC and you're good to go. :)

[WhiteSnake]

Proto's your full of it dude, sorry.

Point 5: game does run better on the newer ATI Cards than on nVidia and 6 is untrue, there plenty of developers optimizing there games for AMD/ATI, the reason there are much more doing so for Intel/nVidia is because those 2 companies pay money/give bonuses if a developer does so, and point 9 its not something you should have said, even if you dont agrea with something, but that exactly showed me what kind of person you are.

[Flanker35M]

S!

Firstly. Protos, you lost the last bit of credibility of any kind in my eyes. You resort to calling names, making assumptions and behaving below standards. Instead of contributing ANYTHING to this thread you just keep touting the nVidia blowhorn etc. So if you have nothing better to do than spew "facts" or call names, just stop writing.

Will answer some of your "facts" as you seem to be one of IL-2 developers if reading your answers and nVidia employee maybe? ;)

1) Agree. ATI is good hardware.
2) IL-2 is ONLy game with issues with drivers for me so not bad drivers in my opinion. Maybe you should do some testing rather than generalize.
3) I had no more crashes or glitches than before when using 9.10 dll's in my IL-2 folder. Program ran normally so hard to say if there is a memory leak or not.
4) We have ASKED if they could be released NOT stated there will be any release of them. Failure to read text in your case.
5) Oleg also has connections to ATI, for a long time as with nVidia. He has never stated he is a fanboi of nVidia, just that IL-2 was optimized for nVidia due driver issues ages ago. You are not Oleg so stop talking in his name.
6) Proof or STFU. Enough said. Again you assume something you know nothing about.
7) Better support or not. Again set proof on the table as you so much like to state "facts".
8) WRONG! ATI has profiles for games, even it is for now only CrossFire setups. Catalysts have this feature included and updated profiles can be downloaded from ATI support. So you fail in this "fact" of yours.
9) So I am an idiot. Why? I can join online games via IP. Easily done AFTER I run a track to clear the blocky text, then the game works normally.

Your last sentences leaves no room for speculation of your motives and drive. I find you hilarious with all this "Mr know it all" attitude and acting as you were Oleg's right hand and nVidia CEO's golf buddy. You could maybe contribute something useful from your experiences with ATI rather than act miserably.

[13th Hsqn Protos]

Here let me 'contribute' my real world, actually build systems for a living experience.

If you want to get the most out of IL2 and SoW - buy Nvidia :cool:

[Flanker35M]

S!

Well, I repair/maintain/arm etc. military aircraft for a living. I really do not get your view of nVidia being the sole solution for gaming. Do you really think ATI would just sit and look? I doubt it. SoW will run on both card brands for sure, it is not a 10 year old code ;) And Oleg's team for sure will test the new sim on BOTH cards to see how it works. Do you really think we will see that spinning "the way you have been shafted" logo in SoW? It was not there in IL-2 and I doubt in SoW either.

Again, I would not assume or state what Oleg and his team are going to do with SoW and graphics card support. No-one outside that team knows anything about this, so speculating is useless waste of forum space ;)

[WhiteSnake]

Cool Flanker!
I might have made a few of the things you fit and work with than.
Worked for Thales here.
SMT part for PCB's for a whide range of things from Comsystems to Missiles with out going into more details on that.
But also Graphics cards for SGI and sensors for Oilrefineries etc.


This Game looks better and Runs Smoother om my AMD/ATI HD4570 Notebook than on my SLI Rig, sure i dunt get such a High FPS on it but the FPS is way more stable and everything looks beter on my Notebook, Thats a fact, no fanboy stuff there dude, i Alway used nVidia ever since the GeForce 3 Ti 500 came out and owned 6 nVidia cards since than, and 3 nForce Motherboards, never had/wanted anything ATI untill this Notebook opened my eyes.

BTW, There are games that say "It's Meant To Be Played" and wen you Benchmark them they run much better on an ATI card...

[Wolf_Rider]

Nvidia has it's own problems with drivers too that are actually burning up cards due to fans not funtioning properly. They have pulled their latest WHQL drivers from their site with a public statement saying this. There are many reports of this going back to earlier drivers also. Does this mean it happens to everyone, no.

Lastly, I have never stated that ATI WILL fix this. I have only said they are looking into it which is pretty cool for a 10 year old game and I can't really ask for more than that.



the problem with the pullled drivers seems to be if a machine goes into hibernation... coming out of that state, the fans wouldn't fire up again.

my last experience with ATI, was the 4870x2, which was quite a good card... though the OGL part the drivers was lacking. ATI seem to have had a definite problem with OGL and it seems to be across the board with anything which runs OGL... not just il2. as of 6 months ago, the problem was still apparent.

[Flanker35M]

S!

Protos, you do not seem to get it. You just blow out "facts" without ANY KIND of PROOF. You are definitely NOT a part of Oleg's team, you have NO idea or hard data of their source code and how they are making it..and still talk as you would be part of their team. Before SoW is released you can not know how it will run on ANY card and for sure Oleg would not tell you how he is coding the game.

x86 runs on AMD and Intel likewise, so really just cut the crap here. Do you really think AMD would be so stupid and make their CPU's NOT to work with x86, but create an own set of instructions instead? Do you really claim that AMD is not capable of running x86 or 64-bit? And AMD can do same tricks as Intel, like the MMX, SSE etc. I am not a programmer or IT-professional, but I have used BOTH brands under Windows/Linux, both 32/64-bit. All have worked just fine under the years.

So slam the facts on the table for all to see Protos, to back up your claims regarding nVidia/SoW and it's coding. Will be interesting to read.

[WhiteSnake]

the problem with the pullled drivers seems to be if a machine goes into hibernation... coming out of that state, the fans wouldn't fire up again.



Basicly they turn to slow but wen you turn a system into hibernation the fan stops, wen you power it up because the fanspeed is set so low it wont start up anymore, but if you give it a push with your finger to help it get going it spins again.
If you Boot a System Normaly everything gets a bit more power for a few seconds to get things going but not wen its been in Hibernation.

Problem is not limited to the 196.75 drivers though, check out a Forum like from EVGA.


You apparently incapable of understanding even the basic parameters of game design and hardware/software architecture.
Educate yourself first and then try to debate your incorrect conclusions.

Your clearly delusional.

Think its the other way round...

[Flanker35M]

S!

Exactly what I waited as your reply Protos. You assault me when you can not provide ANYTHING to back up your claims. So who is the one to get educated here? I have NEVER claimed anything that I can not back up nor have I claimed being an IT-pro. Your Mr.KnowItAll attitude just amazes me yet you can not prove a single claim of yours or provide anything to keep you afloat while doing so. Maybe you should just stay with playing the games rather than trying to be Maddox Games and nVidia representative you are NOT. Meh..you saved my day by calling me delusional, you are a psychiatrist too?! Never laughed this much.:-P

[Wolf_Rider]

Basicly they turn to slow but wen you turn a system into hibernation the fan stops, wen you power it up because the fanspeed is set so low it wont start up anymore, but if you give it a push with your finger to help it get going it spins again.
If you Boot a System Normaly everything gets a bit more power for a few seconds to get things going but not wen its been in Hibernation.

Problem is not limited to the 196.75 drivers though, check out a Forum like from EVGA.




Think its the other way round...



Thanks for the further information

I don't run with Hibernation and I didn't really notice any difference from the previous 196.21 or earlier versions. I was running the pulled version for a few days now but haven't been running anyhting other than the desktop.

[Flanker35M]

S!

Just talked to a good friend who bought my previous nVidia 280GTX card. He was lucky, because these new drivers nVidia released nearly fried his card. He was playing Total War and wondered why the normally noisy fan was quieter under load than usually. So he shut down the game and luckily read from forums that quite a many nVidia users have fried their cards with these new WHQL drivers. All because the fan did not cool enough under load. ATI maybe has issues with games but nVidia fries the cards :D Or are they frying old cards on purpose so people will buy the "holier than thou, saviour of gaming industry" Fermi..I smell conspiracy! Protos, keep your posts coming. Having a blast reading them :)

[WhiteSnake]

Thanks for the further information

I don't run with Hibernation and I didn't really notice any difference from the previous 196.21 or earlier versions. I was running the pulled version for a few days now but haven't been running anyhting other than the desktop.

Its just some models that seem affected by it.
But i sugest you run something like HWmonitor in that record the Min/Max tempratures while your playing in the background to see if it affects your card or not, thats just a general tip from me.

Anyway my cards never gotten over 70c/160f under load, but with the 195.65 driver, 196.21 driver and 196.75 driver it already gets up to that temp from just browsing the internet.

[maclean525]

Wow what a bunch of utter nonsense in this thread.

Facts
=====
1. When you code a graphics engine you code to the DirectX or OpenGL API. You do NOT code directly to the hardware. The API's are hardware independent. The card that is in your development machine when you build the code is irrelevant. The exception to this is if you write code for PhysX which is a proprietary NVidia API.

2. NVidia OpenGL drivers are superior to ATI OpenGL drivers as of right now. ATI's OpenGL drivers have the "blocky text" bug in IL2. NVida drivers do not have this bug.

3. Both NVidia and ATI release "performance" patches for particular games to optimize them. If SoW is markedly faster on one card than the other you can expect a patch from the other manufacturer soon after.

6. SoW will NOT be OpenGL. Therefore the performance of the two manufacturers cards in SoW should be comparable to other games out right now. (directx)

7. At this point in time the new ATI graphics cards are considerably faster than NVidia's comparable offerings.

Speculation
=========
1. Initial indications are that the new NVidia GTX480 not only needs an ungodly amount of power it barely even matches the 5870 in performance and will likely be much more expensive. Performance is not even in the same ballpark as the 5970.

2. There have been no indications that SoW will use PhysX.

ATI have said they are working on the "blocky text" issue in IL2.

My Opinion
========
Since there is a workaround for the ATI blocky text issue there is no reason at all to buy an NVidia card today. The new ATI cards are faster, more efficient, and support triple-screen natively. We have to wait till the new NVidia cards come out to revisit this but as of right now, ATI is the only way to go.

[kimosabi]

Wow what a bunch of utter nonsense in this thread.

Facts
=====
1. When you code a graphics engine you code to the DirectX or OpenGL API. You do NOT code directly to the hardware. The API's are hardware independent. The card that is in your development machine when you build the code is irrelevant. The exception to this is if you write code for PhysX which is a proprietary NVidia API.

2. NVidia OpenGL drivers are superior to ATI OpenGL drivers as of right now. ATI's OpenGL drivers have the "blocky text" bug in IL2. NVida drivers do not have this bug.

3. Both NVidia and ATI release "performance" patches for particular games to optimize them. If SoW is markedly faster on one card than the other you can expect a patch from the other manufacturer soon after.

6. SoW will NOT be OpenGL. Therefore the performance of the two manufacturers cards in SoW should be comparable to other games out right now. (directx)

7. At this point in time the new ATI graphics cards are considerably faster than NVidia's comparable offerings.

Speculation
=========
1. Initial indications are that the new NVidia GTX480 not only needs an ungodly amount of power it barely even matches the 5870 in performance and will likely be much more expensive. Performance is not even in the same ballpark as the 5970.

2. There have been no indications that SoW will use PhysX.

ATI have said they are working on the "blocky text" issue in IL2.

My Opinion
========
Since there is a workaround for the ATI blocky text issue there is no reason at all to buy an NVidia card today. The new ATI cards are faster, more efficient, and support triple-screen natively. We have to wait till the new NVidia cards come out to revisit this but as of right now, ATI is the only way to go.

Good post. Especially the "SoW will NOT use OpenGL". I don't see the big difference between OpenGL and DirectX in IL-2 though so anyway, that wouldn't matter much to me, being a "non-hysterical" simmer and all.

About the Fermi, meh, it has been hyped so much the last six months now so I reckon most users will be slightly disappointed when they get it, if they compare it to a 5xxx card. Heck, I was kinda disappointed going from a 4850x2 to a 5870.... No, I wasn't. :grin:

Thanks for bringing it back to a serious level man.

~S~

[gprr]

Hi

This quote is from here:
http://forum.1cpublishing.eu/showthread.php?t=6909&highlight=opengl+main

9) My question is: on what operatiing system SOW-BOB will run?
Will it be based on OpenGl as Il2 was or DirectX?
Will it be DirectX9 or 10? Or both?
OpenGl - still main.


gprr

[Igo kyu]

That was a long time ago, OM has changed his mind since then. Please note that you are quoting a post that itself consists of quotes, Oleg has changed his mind since the original quote, and has published that since the quote was requoted, but it may be that the change of mind occurred before the requote.

[maclean525]

Hi

This quote is from here:
http://forum.1cpublishing.eu/showthread.php?t=6909&highlight=opengl+main

9) My question is: on what operatiing system SOW-BOB will run?
Will it be based on OpenGl as Il2 was or DirectX?
Will it be DirectX9 or 10? Or both?
OpenGl - still main.


gprr

That quote was from almost a year ago. Last week Oleg specifically told me SoW would support Directx9, 10 and 11.

http://forum.1cpublishing.eu/showpost.php?p=146485&postcount=15

[gprr]

Thanks maclean525

Found also those posts to my real relife:)(have 5850 and according late 470/480 leaks it would be ok to stay or upgrade to 5870:grin:)

gprr

[Flanker35M]

S!

I apologize for straying off topic. A bit too much mud flew in the air and I think it is time to stop this. After all this is not UbiZoo ;) Sorry guys.

[gprr]

S!

I apologize for straying off topic. A bit too much mud flew in the air and I think it is time to stop this. After all this is not UbiZoo ;) Sorry guys.

Agreed - no dll's in sight or even driver brakethrough, so we are all done and even overdone here.

gprr

[TheFamilyMan]

Though one community member has the personal assurance from a highly placed ATI driver development manager that the IL-2 problem "will be looked into", consider that since the release of Vista there has been a DX9 vsync bug with ATI cards running FSX in Vista, and now in Windows 7, that has NEVER been remedied. BTW this problem does not exist for nvidia cards.


I REALLY REALLY wanted to get a 5850 for my new i7 rig, but since IL-2 and FSX are pretty much most of the gaming I do, I would have been a fool (IMO) to buy ATI. Fortunately I'm glad I did my reseach and was able to buy one of the last NIB gtx 275s for a really low price...enough said. Sorry for kicking the horse, I'll move along now, S!

[maclean525]

I REALLY REALLY wanted to get a 5850 for my new i7 rig, but since IL-2 and FSX are pretty much most of the gaming I do, I would have been a fool (IMO) to buy ATI. Fortunately I'm glad I did my reseach and was able to buy one of the last NIB gtx 275s for a really low price...enough said. Sorry for kicking the horse, I'll move along now, S!

? I don't understand this logic.

Use the catalyst drivers version 9.10 in IL2. Problem solved.
Use D3dOverrider in FSX for vsync. Problem solved.

[Flanker35M]

S!

Not much testing can be done now until we get new version of Catalyst driver set or there is another "leak" of them. Using currently 10.3 preview ones with my games, work just fine except the known bugs for IL-2.

[TheFamilyMan]

? I don't understand this logic.

Use the catalyst drivers version 9.10 in IL2. Problem solved.
Use D3dOverrider in FSX for vsync. Problem solved.Logic:
1. I don't need to use any work arounds or beta release drivers to run IL-2.
2. Your 'fix' for FSX does not solve the problem.
3. No other games really matter to me in the next year or so.

But hey, this is me. If it wasn't for the FSX problem I'd have a 5850 now and I'd get by using the ATI driver kludge for IL-2. And I imagine that this is where ATI will leave all IL-2 users: you got your work around so don't complain.

[Qpassa]

Are ATI developing something or not to fix text corruption,I have 300€ for buy a new video card

[maclean525]

Are ATI developing something or not to fix text corruption,I have 300€ for buy a new video card

One highly placed source at ATI says yes, support folks say no.

[Flanker35M]

S!

It is true. Dataa of symptoms, how to reproduce them etc. was given via proper channels and ATI did respond. This is a fact. So we have to wait and see what they find out.

[Codex]

Are ATI developing something or not to fix text corruption,I have 300€ for buy a new video card

What does it matter? You should be keeping that 300Euro for SoW ;)

[Qpassa]

What does it matter? You should be keeping that 300Euro for SoW ;)

Im going to build a new PC,when the Farmi's release

[WhiteSnake]

Im going to build a new PC,when the Farmi's release

I hope you check Bencmarks from games before you do, and than think if its worth the extra money compaired to a HD5870... so far from the Game benches ive seen its not worth the money at all.
That it scores really great in a Benchmark like Unique Heaven DX11 doesnt mean a thing for gaming performance, there are no games yet (non in development also) using that technology.

If the Prices and Game Benchmarks are true i wouldnt be suprised if 2011 starts with out nVidia, dont think anyone would want to pay twice as much compaired to a HD5870 for less than 5% gain, in some games it seems the HD5870 is even faster then the GTX 480.

And for 3D or PhysX alone... AMD/ATI is working on 3D drivers, and there about to release there Physics engine.

But we just have to wait till some more Benches show up that are reliable from difrent games, and what the real price is on the Fermi.

[gprr]

Decieded not to post anymore in this thread but couldn't ressist,
Very intresting stuff here to read betwee lines:
http://www.nvnews.net/vbulletin/forumdisplay.php?f=8

IL-2/SoW wise looks to be still NV's but a lot of money to spend.
It may be that 2 ATI cards can out deliver what 1 NV card does with better efficiency and better performance to $ ratio.

My money is still waiting for ATI improved drivers and NV 4x0 power consumption and heat...

gprr

[Flanker35M]

S!

My uneducated and non-IT pro guess is that ATI/AMD have to pull their act together with driver support and I am sure they will. They have no other option as Fermi is coming. ATI's strong point has been and will be comparable performance with less price and less power usage, nVidia has been good with drivers in general except this last blooper of frying cards. Their hardware is fast as well. Either brand card you take I am sure you get a ton of speed to ANY game you play :) So matter of preference really, no need to be a fanboi there. I will get another 5870HD or the new 2Gb 5970 :D

[gprr]

S!

My uneducated and non-IT pro guess is that ATI/AMD have to pull their act together with driver support and I am sure they will. They have no other option as Fermi is coming. ATI's strong point has been and will be comparable performance with less price and less power usage, nVidia has been good with drivers in general except this last blooper of frying cards. Their hardware is fast as well. Either brand card you take I am sure you get a ton of speed to ANY game you play :) So matter of preference really, no need to be a fanboi there. I will get another 5870HD or the new 2Gb 5970 :D

Flanker,do chek space in your rig for long card as 5970.
If I refund my 5850 with ATI make, 2 5870 would be my choice-better performanc with no need to overclok that 5970 which has own probs due to pcb design(http://www.anandtech.com/weblog/showpost.aspx?i=657)

gprr

[Flanker35M]

S!

If it does not fit I buy a new tower ;) But seriously, a second 5870HD would do just fine and my current PSU would be enough for them with some room to spare.

[Codex]

Flanker,do chek space in your rig for long card as 5970.
If I refund my 5850 with ATI make, 2 5870 would be my choice-better performanc with no need to overclok that 5970 which has own probs due to pcb design(http://www.anandtech.com/weblog/showpost.aspx?i=657)

gprr


I have to agree, the 5870 and 5970 are huge cards, make sure your case has plenty of room. I recently bought the SilverStone Raven II case, it's got a great ventilation design as the motherboard is rotated 90 degrees so all peripherals are fixed vertically and it has heaps of 120mm fans. It's a bit funky looking but there is also a plainer version the FT02.

[WhiteSnake]

Im going for a AMD Phenom II 965 or a new faster model, AMD 890 chipset Crossfire mobo and ATI/AMD HD5870 (2x) and 8GB RAM for my new rig.

Not willing to spend much more on a Intel based rig and an nVidia card for just a few % more performance.

You cant even say how ATI and nVidia are going to compair yet with SoW at all btw, you just have to wait till the Cards are out, and probably than till SoW comes out to be sure.

[Flanker35M]

S!

WhiteSnake, I run now AMD Phenom II 965 Black Edition (Stock @3.4GHz), AMD 790FX chipset, 5870HD and 8Gb DDR3. Sweet system! Would need these new SSD hard drives for better performance in data transfer :)

[WhiteSnake]

S!

WhiteSnake, I run now AMD Phenom II 965 Black Edition (Stock @3.4GHz), AMD 790FX chipset, 5870HD and 8Gb DDR3. Sweet system! Would need these new SSD hard drives for better performance in data transfer :)

VelociRaptor 300GB is a much more reliable solution, more space, cheaper, and almost as fast.

Theres supost to be a new 500GB version comming soon also.

[Flanker35M]

S!

Gonna take a look on that one, thanks for heads up :)