Let us please avoid the black screen in next sim.

[I/ZG52_Gaga]

Dear friends,

an issue that always bothered me regarding the way the game handles "PK".

I firmly believe that the black screen when in a “PK” situation is totally inappropriate.

• If it’s done on purpose, well…. then things get really dark ..…

as in

“I want to provoke negativity”

or as in

“I want to drive the competitive male to madness

and /or

get him hooked on my “digital substance”

• If someone thought it as an easy way to pass from the one situation to another

– Flying – Dead, it’s certainly at the least un-inspired if not just negative.


We shouldn’t have this kind of psychological torments in our next Sim.

We should have a more positive transition from one situation to the other, with a different graphical approach. Maybe a blurry outside view that slowly fades out to a
Screen advising you to exit the game or re-fly or what have you.

One thing that we must never have again is the negativity of the black screen.

If someone says it’s part of the realism. My reply is that we are all sitting on armchairs smoking & drinking and the pilot of the I16 can fly at 7 K without fainting
since the demo of IL2 ….. so please don’t bother …..

Regards

[CZS_Ondras]

To be honest, regardless of what you say in the last setence, my preception of such situation is a real oposite of your wish. I would love to see not only black screen, but also here no sound at all and be unable (at least if we are talking about online) to click refly or quit or anything like that until impact to the surface!!

Next time somone will ask for receiving points for the death (ala COD) and candy from Oleg, magicaly served by the CD drive.

Simulations will never be 100% "realistic", we will always smoke and drink beer behind our desk and enjoy good fun, but still, if I am not wrong, Olegs goal has always been about maximum aproach to realism, no mather how 100% of it is unattainable.

P.S. if some one feels somehow humiliated by this presentation of unconsciesness, then there is only one suggestion: do not let your self klilled...

O.

[ZaltysZ]

Offline - I don't carer.
Online - black screen and no sound is a must.

Well, black screen can be changed to cinematics of light at the tunnel end, if people find black screen to be boring; but please, no external view after death online - dead is dead and he should not be able to do recon.

[Sutts]

Personally, I like the way sudden death is portrayed in the game. The shock of the sudden black screen really brings it home to you how many young aviators met their end - often by some stray bullet or random lump of flak. I think it is the duty of simulations like this to bring home the reality of war and get us thinking about the sacrifices made by that generation. The black screen followed by watching your slumped pilot spiral in makes that connection with reality, at least for me.

[I/ZG52_Gaga]

we are all sitting on armchairs smoking & drinking and the pilot of the I16 can fly at 7 K without fainting since the demo of IL2 ….. so please don’t bother …..

[Igo kyu]

Online, I don't care.

Offline, dead should be dead. I don't enjoy it, but there is nothing to be done so the black screen from the cockpit is about right. I don't think it should happen so often, the as I understand it the Spitfire and Hurricane had bulletproof windscreens, and in the BoB at least the German bomber gunners had guns of a calibre less than 8mm, but when it does happen, it should be the black screen or something very like it.

The pilots of the i16 are shown with oxygen masks. In the Biggles books (I'd read the lot by the age of 13, okay?) the limit for flying without oxygen in WW1 was given as 18,000 ft. With oxygen, it would be the limits of the plane, which would depend on superchargers etc.

[BadAim]

Sorry Gaga, but your post is one of the most ridiculous examples of political correctness run amok that I've ever heard. (I've deleted the bulk of what I originally wrote to avoid hurting your feelings)

We are discussing here a game that simulates war. War is where a bunch of guy's get together and try to kill, maim and imprison a bunch of other guys who are trying to do likewise to them, these things sometimes get unpleasant. I just thought I should point that out.

I think perhaps you've stumbled into the wrong place. Why are you not playing a nice game of foot ball where the score is not kept to avoid hurting anyone's feelings, mate?

[KG26_Alpha]

Hi Gaga

Perhaps a graphical update to the dead pilot scenario is a good idea.

We have at present : You is dead be sure !!

Maybe it could be: Stop drinking and smoking or you will be dead soon.

Or any user warning you like :)

[Flanker35M]

S!

Or the message: BOOOM! Headshot!

[Mango]

Personally, I like the way sudden death is portrayed in the game. The shock of the sudden black screen really brings it home to you how many young aviators met their end - often by some stray bullet or random lump of flak. I think it is the duty of simulations like this to bring home the reality of war and get us thinking about the sacrifices made by that generation. The black screen followed by watching your slumped pilot spiral in makes that connection with reality, at least for me.

+1 :!:

I agree, the sudden black screen is shocking. I always thought the sound should abruptly cut out too, or at least fade out, first crossing over to a high-pitch ringing.

[robtek]

Maybe a tunnel with a white light at the end?

[I/ZG52_Gaga]

i'm certain you haven't understood a single word i wrote.


- i never had high hopes

- i have very good understanding of the kind crowd i'm adressing too.

LMAO what a waste of time!

[TheGrunch]

LMAO what a waste of time!
The reason we haven't understood much of what you've written is because (largely due to a language barrier I'm sure) your first post was quite incoherent. What did you want to happen, anyway? It's a game, but your pilot can still be killed in the game. There's got to be some kind of downside to that other than having to refly. IMO the negative feeling you get when you're PKed is quite important.

[Skoshi Tiger]

How about an intermission sign with a floral border so we know it's time to go a get more cigarettes (or refill our pipes!) and booze, But what sort of music should be played!

I supose, for educational purposes, we should get a grainy B/W film clip from our attackers gun camera so we can learn from our mistakes!

Cheers!

[zaelu]

I said it in another thread... the pilot head should be blobing or falling on the dash board... the image should blur and slowly darken away. A quote about that moment should be appropiate also.

Many other shooters have this effect and is acceptable.

Oh... and after dieing in a plane and shortly after crashing it shouldn't be that instant external view...

[MikkOwl]

I believe, as usual, in simulation, not in a romantic nostalgic idea of what flying these machines could be like (yes, we can 'skip' long flights and other very inconvenient things since we have limited time, just like we don't need to simulate needing to go to the bathroom when flying - we get that problem at our desk anyway).

Principles to be followed:
The pilot's eyes should never leave his head (no external cameras, no switching to other crewmembers, alive or dead).

Sound & vision should depend on the type of damage done to the pilot. Projectile pierce your heart or a major artery, first tunnel vision (with motio blur), then no vision, then sound getting blurry and fading. Cranium struck by a heavy machine gun or high explosive cannon shell leaves no dying breath type stuff - just black silence.

I also think that the pilot's body should be rendered and that the gore effects can be as real as they can be made (as option only, never difficulty setting). Blood squirting on windscreen, instruments, pilot heart piercing screams when stuck on fire in the cockpit - heavy breathing, color distortions, facial lacerations (blood in your eye, have to wipe it every few seconds), hearing loss on one ear or both, ringing in ears, getting arms/legs disabled strongly affecting flying controls, and even decapitation (imagine camera suddenly tumbling around in the cockpit down into the lap of the pilot, quickly getting tunnel vision then blacking out). All kinds of disgusting horror.

A text message if death is instantaneous - text starting to fade in slowly after 1 second of complete silence/blackness. A black quiet screen always makes me think my computer froze or my graphical card died.
__________

Why do I want this? Because this is much closer to what being a pilot of a flying war machine of the 1930's and 1940's was about. If there were horrifying representations of injury or death, I would be even more motivated to avoid it. I sometimes like to treat it like 'air quake', dog fighting with no strings attached, and I understand why people like that. But to stop there is to be dishonest to our past history.

As a bonus, I think that cold realistic gore and death will help stop real war and violence more. Seeing the movie "Saving Private Ryan" will teach any kid that war is not some cool exciting game, and I wish the same for Storm of War. There were real people of flesh and blood in those machines, not just machines fighting machines (which is what many airmen felt like they were fighting).

[T}{OR]

...

We shouldn’t have this kind of psychological torments in our next Sim.

We should have a more positive transition from one situation to the other, with a different graphical approach. Maybe a blurry outside view that slowly fades out to a
Screen advising you to exit the game or re-fly or what have you.

One thing that we must never have again is the negativity of the black screen.

...

I fully disagree with that. Explain how and what is positive in someone dying?!

Black screen when dead usually means that you took a round in a vital area and, when we look at what weapons is for example FW190 equipped with - it is very understandable why there is a sudden 'black screen of death'.

Unless you have never seen it, you can also be wounded in IL2. Not every hit means death. And if the wound is severe, you will eventually bleed do death.

To be honest, regardless of what you say in the last sentence, my perception of such situation is a real opposite of your wish. I would love to see not only black screen, but also here no sound at all and be unable (at least if we are talking about online) to click re fly or quit or anything like that until impact to the surface!!

+1

This is a must for online experience. I do hope they add muted sounds as well and prevent hitting re-fly until your plane hits the ground.

[MikkOwl]

I do hope they [...] prevent hitting re-fly until your plane hits the ground.
What purpose does that serve if you are dead? The aircraft itself striking an object/terrain or not has no relevance anymore at that point. To be forced to wait around for it only reinforces the idea that you are not actually dead nor a pilot, but you are the aircraft - it's not over until 'it' is dead.

[Blackdog_kt]

Sometimes you can get a PK with a lucky shot from your .303s on a head on, but the damage to the actual aiframe might be minimal. In such a case and if you're opponent has a well trimmed aircraft, it might take as much as 5-10 minutes (depending on altitude) for the aircraft to crash.

Making people wait on a screen for 10 minutes in multiplayer would not go down well with most (example, Rise of Flight multiplayer where you can also spectate and it still gets tedious to wait, imagine staring at a blank screen).

It depends on the scenario i think. For a co-op/non-respawning game mode, knock yourself out. In a DF/persistent server with respawns though, we don't simulate one pilot, as much as we simulate a series of sorties by possibly different pilots during the course of the battle. It would make sense to scramble additional fighters when you lose contact with the previous flight and since we can't have 200 people per side to enforce a 1 death per mission rule, the same guys respawn in a new aircraft to simulate the next batch of reinforcements. In that case, having to wait for the aircraft to impact the ground would be like saying "we can't take off until the previous flight are all dead".

From a realism standpoint neither one makes too much sense, so we compromise. If we want to simulate a single mission and a single pilot it's co-ops, if we want to simulate a series of sorties it's DF and there's different kinds of "death penalties" that work well with each one.

[julian265]

Sorry Gaga, but your post is one of the most ridiculous examples of political correctness run amok that I've ever heard. (I've deleted the bulk of what I originally wrote to avoid hurting your feelings)

We are discussing here a game that simulates war. War is where a bunch of guy's get together and try to kill, maim and imprison a bunch of other guys who are trying to do likewise to them, these things sometimes get unpleasant. I just thought I should point that out.

I think perhaps you've stumbled into the wrong place. Why are you not playing a nice game of foot ball where the score is not kept to avoid hurting anyone's feelings, mate?

I interpreted the post differently - that Gaga doesn't like the sudden hit of frustration when he/she gets PK'd. Maybe Gaga has broken a keyboard or two after the black-screens?

[julian265]

What purpose does that serve if you are dead? The aircraft itself striking an object/terrain or not has no relevance anymore at that point. To be forced to wait around for it only reinforces the idea that you are not actually dead nor a pilot, but you are the aircraft - it's not over until 'it' is dead.

Absolutely. Plus the fact that some pilot-less aircraft fly for minutes. What if you're on level-autopilot :confused:

[T}{OR]

What purpose does that serve if you are dead? The aircraft itself striking an object/terrain or not has no relevance anymore at that point. To be forced to wait around for it only reinforces the idea that you are not actually dead nor a pilot, but you are the aircraft - it's not over until 'it' is dead.

Well, after some thought I have to agree it would have no relevance. But still, it would be nice to have the aircraft rendered until it hits the ground instead of disappearing in the mid air when one hits re-fly.

[Skoshi Tiger]

Sometimes you can get a PK with a lucky shot from your .303s on a head on, but the damage to the actual aiframe might be minimal. In such a case and if you're opponent has a well trimmed aircraft, it might take as much as 5-10 minutes (depending on altitude) for the aircraft to crash.

Making people wait on a screen for 10 minutes in multiplayer would not go down well with most (example, Rise of Flight multiplayer where you can also spectate and it still gets tedious to wait, imagine staring at a blank screen).

It depends on the scenario i think. For a co-op/non-respawning game mode, knock yourself out. In a DF/persistent server with respawns though, we don't simulate one pilot, as much as we simulate a series of sorties by possibly different pilots during the course of the battle. It would make sense to scramble additional fighters when you lose contact with the previous flight and since we can't have 200 people per side to enforce a 1 death per mission rule, the same guys respawn in a new aircraft to simulate the next batch of reinforcements. In that case, having to wait for the aircraft to impact the ground would be like saying "we can't take off until the previous flight are all dead".

From a realism standpoint neither one makes too much sense, so we compromise. If we want to simulate a single mission and a single pilot it's co-ops, if we want to simulate a series of sorties it's DF and there's different kinds of "death penalties" that work well with each one.

My "Record" was 5 almost vertical loops preformed after I'ld been killed in a Hurricane that I had trimmed nose-up, each time i was missing the ground by less than 100 feet. It was right in the takeoff path of one of my teams airstrips and my fellow team members thought I was playing silly-buggers and were swearing at me and telling me to cut it out! Several had to take emergency evasive action to avoid collision!

All good clean fun!

Cheers!

[airmalik]

dead is dead and he should not be able to do recon.

recollection of people that were clinically dead and then revived would suggest otherwise :) A lot of people in such cases recall out of body experiences and in some cases looking down at their own bodies.

[BadAim]

I interpreted the post differently - that Gaga doesn't like the sudden hit of frustration when he/she gets PK'd. Maybe Gaga has broken a keyboard or two after the black-screens?

I think perhaps that's even sadder.

[BadAim]

My "Record" was 5 almost vertical loops preformed after I'ld been killed in a Hurricane that I had trimmed nose-up, each time i was missing the ground by less than 100 feet. It was right in the takeoff path of one of my teams airstrips and my fellow team members thought I was playing silly-buggers and were swearing at me and telling me to cut it out! Several had to take emergency evasive action to avoid collision!

All good clean fun!

Cheers!

LOL, I've always hated that about IL2. I don't think the controls should freeze after death, they should go "limp". Even if the plane is well trimmed it's unlikely that the pilot's body wouldn't interfere with the controls. Even in CFS1 the plane would react to the pilot being killed.

[Lucas_From_Hell]

Poor, poor boy. He can't handle staring at a black screen. Isn't it sad?

It's indeed frustrating and sometimes sad, but that's war, after all!

I've felt a bit bad for it a number of times. That low run in a flaky place, and when you're about to press the trigger - bang! and it's all over in less than a second.

I guess the most dramatic experience with sims I ever had was in Rise of Flight. Your aircraft gets shot, a piece of your wing support is broken. You try to control it, and when it's almost stabilized, the wing goes off like a leaf. A crazy spin, you try to do something, but it just won't recover, there's no way out, and the ground getting closer, and closer, and closer... and it's over.

Il-2 is a bit lighter, as you can bail out, anyway...

The thing is, war isn't a nice cute thing, and there's no need to try to make it like such.

[Billfish]

My Vote...........

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v707/Kaytoo/bsod.jpg

K2

[Lonely Ringer]

Yep ... dead is dead I vote for black screen weather or not you see it comming is .... well . weather or not you see it comming..other wise get an xthingy and go arcade .....scheesssh .... stop your whinning and clean up your room... put your dirty clothes in the laundry and go to school.

John 3:16

[choctaw111]

I don't know about the rest of you, but when I am dead, I don't think I will be seeing or hearing too much, as in black screen and no sound.

[Letum]

I love the BkSOD.

[MikkOwl]

Well, after some thought I have to agree it would have no relevance. But still, it would be nice to have the aircraft rendered until it hits the ground instead of disappearing in the mid air when one hits re-fly.
Oh certainly! I agree. But these things don't have to be connected to each other. It's just a matter of not making things disappear into thin air regardless of what a user chooses to do.

On that thought - how about making planes (try to) return to base under AI control if a person disconnects/despawns? And not allowing them to return until the AI pilot controlling that plane is dead or landed/bailed out (necessary to avoid people spamming planes or abusing the mechanics, and discouraging them from despawning in mid air). I really hate to see stuff appear and dissappear like that. How much more unimmersive can it get? It's an insult to our sense of reality and has no place in a simulator.

recollection of people that were clinically dead and then revived would suggest otherwise :) A lot of people in such cases recall out of body experiences and in some cases looking down at their own bodies.
Amusing and, I badly want to believe it means something. But most likely this is hallucinative/dream like states that the brain can experience when it's on the brink of becoming brain dead. "Clinically dead" only means the heart stops beating, by the way, and not that the person (their brain) is dead. My dad once had an experience like this - he fainted in sports class in his school days inside a big building they were playing some team sports in, and he saw himself and everyone from above. Most likely he was dreaming that he was floating around, because he could still hear (somewhat), thus could hear what was being said around him. Matching that with what he imagined things would look like, and it seems convincing enough.

Regardless, I wish very, very much that there is something to these reports other than dreamstates.

LOL, I've always hated that about IL2. I don't think the controls should freeze after death, they should go "limp". Even if the plane is well trimmed it's unlikely that the pilot's body wouldn't interfere with the controls. Even in CFS1 the plane would react to the pilot being killed.
I think it is rare that people just 'die' instantaneously. Only a hit to the neck or head, or strong overpressure (from explosion - instant unconciousness at least) will cause the body to go auto-limp without any special input. In such cases, I think it depends on the control forces involved and what the pilot was doing at that moment. Elevator controls are very light on a Fw 190 for example, at low speeds, and I can imagine that it would either nose down or up if the hand even lightly started pulling on the stick.

But to get other reactions, the situations where lack of control isn't instantaneous (hit to torso or limb), I think it is highly likely the pilot might jerk the stick in some direction as a reflex of the experience, even if death is just seconds away.

The meaning of it all = you have a point, though it is more complicated than one might think.

Poor, poor boy. He can't handle staring at a black screen. Isn't it sad?

It's indeed frustrating and sometimes sad, but that's war, after all!
I agree with most of your post.

But who says he can't handle it? And that he's poor because of it? He just has a different preference to the majority of posters here. Taking it as far as to sarcastically mock/ridicule/insult this fellow is not acceptable. This goes for other posters in this topic as well. Stay respectful. (I have had several experiences in the past where if one expresses anything contrary to popular opinion, people group up, and once they notice most or all don't agree with the deviant fellow, they do away with civil behaviour and can become very unpleasant to extreme levels - bullying/mobbing and so on, much worse than this, as no one will punish them for it).

[Skoshi Tiger]

I don't think the controls should freeze after death, they should go "limp". Even if the plane is well trimmed it's unlikely that the pilot's body wouldn't interfere with the controls. Even in CFS1 the plane would react to the pilot being killed.

The pilot's body should be held firmly in it's seat by it's harness and (in my case) +'ve G and hopefully away from the controls

The reason we trim a plane is so it will maintain an attiude (or control deflection) without any force being applied by the pilot.

Now in my case I was trimming the plane on the verge of a black out so that if I went unconcious I wouldn't hit the ground. So there was a substantial nose up trim on my Hurricane.

During the late 40's early 50's a light plane (an Auster) took of from a Sydney airport by it'self (The pilot having got out to hand spin the prop! ) it took off and circled Sydney harbour for several hours while RAAF Mustangs tried to bring it down over the water. The Mustang pilots were quite red faced when the plane ran out of fuel by it's self and crashed into the water!

I guess some planes just want to fly!
Cheers

[Loco-S]

It could be interesting the sound of a really loud "thud" with a loud tinnitus like buzz, and the controls going limp, then the sound of gurgling, like you do when somebody kicks you in the nuts, then the sounds slowly fading and then the progression between tunnel vision and then the black screen...that could be like a warning that you are out for better pastures.

otherwise, its kind of funnily annoying having that black screen.

[doordie]

Since this polarizes people so much please do the sensible thing and have many options.

[Skoshi Tiger]

As a creative work, Oleg and team should be give their artistic licence to interpret death in any way they see fit.

As the developers of damn fine simulations, I sure Oleg and Co would accept any concrete data that anyone can supply that proves their interpretation wrong. They've done it in the past and I'm sure that they would do it in the future. But they are fairly particular about their sources, No hearsay or second hand information.

Any voluneers to gather some objective, first hand data??????

;)

[KG26_Alpha]

As near death experiences go................

Perhaps the user can load a set of images of his/her past, early childhood weddings holiday births deaths etc, into the SoW "RIP" folder.

Then you can have your life flash before your eyes as you "kick the bucket" in your pit.

:grin:

[_1SMV_Gitano]

+1 :!:

I agree, the sudden black screen is shocking. I always thought the sound should abruptly cut out too, or at least fade out, first crossing over to a high-pitch ringing.

+1

[Foo'bar]

+1

But then we need a little message "You are dead" or something else, otherwise I could think my dispaly just have died ;)

[Lucas_From_Hell]

It depends on how you die.

Sometimes it's sudden death as we see currently. The problem is, it's not always like that.

When a HE 40mm flak round enters your head, you'll probably be dead before you can say "Shturmovik". In this case, my guess is the sudden end is quite right.

But in other cases, it might be different...

[KG26_Alpha]

As a creative work, Oleg and team should be give their artistic licence to interpret death in any way they see fit.

As the developers of damn fine simulations, I sure Oleg and Co would accept any concrete data that anyone can supply that proves their interpretation wrong. They've done it in the past and I'm sure that they would do it in the future. But they are fairly particular about their sources, No hearsay or second hand information.

Any voluneers to gather some objective, first hand data??????

;)

This could encourage the "chart monkeys" to speculate and make some formula in excel to predict the data required !!!!

We need a chart

[ramstein]

I like it the way one dies in a game like Stalker,, where as you get injured, you lose energy,, your vision fades away.. then it cuts away to the seen where your body is..

[Skoshi Tiger]

This could encourage the "chart monkeys" to speculate and make some formula in excel to predict the data required !!!!

We need a chart

Ask and you will receive!

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Skoshi Tiger Pain V Bullet Speed Comparison Chart (c)
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
................Ft/sec__Size of head (Ft)__Time to cover distance(sec)
Pressure____200___0.75____________0.00375
Pain_________3____0.75___________0.25
Mk7 .303_2445____0.75___________0.000306748
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

This chart shows the time taken for the different item listed to propogate approximately 9 inches (very roughly the distance between the back of my head to the tip of my nose!

From extensive research of the first site returned by yahoo I found that nerve impulses generated by pressure travel at about 200 feet per second and those caused by pain go at only about 3 feet per second.

The trusty Mk7 .303 round travels at about 2445 ft/second (from memory!) (The Colt-Browning machine guns used the MK8 round but they were only a little bit faster)

As you can see there is an order of magnitude diffence between the time taken for the bullet to pass through the said distance and any feeling of the bullet. The pain is not even in the ball park!

Which leads to the old Joke

"what is the last thing to pass through a grasshoppers mind as he hits the windscreen of a car traveling at 60mph!?"
.
..
...
"His Butt!"



Cheers!

[doordie]

i'd like an Edgar mod. when you die the radio will say "ahhh..te bañaste." like the father (holding the camera) said when edgar fell into the water
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b89CnP0Iq30

[AKA_Tenn]

honestly... u get shot in the head... ur dead and black is all u should see...

get shot in the arm... maybe a little blur or something to simulate pain, but u wouldn't die before u ran outta fuel, landed or someone finished you off...

really it all depends on where u get hit...

fade out should be if u die from bloodloss and even then it should be like...

u get tired and u should be like nodding off sorta like... screen goes black and then comes back like ur having problems keeping ur eyes open... and eventually u just pass out, screen goes black for good...

[Igo kyu]

honestly... u get shot in the head... ur dead and black is all u should see...
Yeah. Which means all the pilot kills are headshots. That is really, really unlikely in my view. I think there are too many pilot kills in the game, it's the sniper bomber gunners fault in the main, it just didn't happen like that in the real war.

[KG26_Alpha]

honestly... u get shot in the head... ur dead and black is all u should see...

Well we have no way to confirm this so we can have what we like as a KIA option IMHO :grin:

its a bit like WW2 AC FM & DM discussions, no one here flew them or got shot gown in one but we all think we know how it should be.

[AKA_Tenn]

Well we have no way to confirm this so we can have what we like as a KIA option IMHO :grin:

its a bit like WW2 AC FM & DM discussions, no one here flew them or got shot gown in one but we all think we know how it should be.


i should rephrase to say... a dead person can't go on teamspeak or ventrilo and report where enemies shot him down... so black is all you should see, instead of being an omnipresent observer who can give info to anyone

[KG26_Alpha]

i should rephrase to say... a dead person can't go on teamspeak or ventrilo and report where enemies shot him down... so black is all you should see, instead of being an omnipresent observer who can give info to anyone

don't worry about that

theres the log filehack that sees all ac coordinates, been out for years that's why i stopped flying bombers in online wars.

radar anyone ?

[AKA_Tenn]

i thought this was for SOW i know there's the log file in il2fb but maybe it'll be different in SOW...

and radar in the 40's consisted of little dots on a screen... there wasn't the resolution or technology to identify the aircraft and in no way was it perfect down to the exact location...