lf some info about tanks

[plbm]

ok i'm noob here so wtf then other ppl destroying my tigers or panthers with one ^^cking shot, and i cant kill them with tiger or other tank in front, but they destroying my tanks in front ...(sry 4 bad english)

[agentxer0]

Tiger and Panther have very big weaknesses that can be overcome by any nation. For one the panther has very weak side armor and any shot on its side will pretty much kill it instantly. Also if u park the Panther on a slope u will negate the angle of its armor making it weak against shots to the front. The tiger has a very big weak spot on the front armor best way to fix that is angle the Tiger at a 45 degree angle twords ur attacker so their shots will eeither bounce off ur sides or they will hit the corner of ur armor.

As far as why u are not killing other tanks with Tiger nor Panther u have to take many things into consideration when engageing other tanks. When u directly control a tank u want the Shot to hit your target at the flatest angle possible

If the enemy tank shows u some of his side don't nessisiarily Shoot the side armor because it may be a very shallow angle and ur shot will just be deflected by his armor. Aim for their turrets usually if u don't blow the magazine you will at least disable their ability to aim at u so u can get closer and get Better armor penetration from your shots.

The biggest mistake people make with tanks i see when playing against them is they fire from the max range they can, thinking well i got a bigger tank so i must be able to kill them from here. Thats rarely the case especially against Russians because most of their tanks have highly sloped armor.

If u mouse over any tank in game it will show u their Minimum and maximum armor Thickness and when u are in direct control mode and u aim at something with AP ammo loaded it will tell you Approximately how much armor u can penetrate from that distance. So if your target has 40mm of armor and u can only penetrate 30mm of armor at that distance there is a good chance your shot will bounce off. Get closer to get better penetration.

[KnightFandragon]

The Tiger in this game is pure garbage....the problem might not be your tactics but that the Tiger has been dumbed down. My dad has, over and over bought a Tiger I and gotten into pissing matches w/ my Sherman 76W's and bounced....fired and bounced...bounce...bounce....all the while I roll in fire 1 or 2 rounds and his Tiger blows the F*** up. So, final verdict is the Tiger isnt good. Also, the German armor in general you'll prolly over time notice is less accurate then American armor. The 90L and 76L have pin point accuracy even on the move. Even the Stuart my dad rolled in a Tiger I, fired 3 times into its side and they all bounced, doing no damage to it whatsoever. Also did it w/ a Pzr IV vs my Stuart, hit me 3 times and blew a track broke my turret and i killed his Pzr4...What ive noticed is the Pzr IV H is good early game Vs the M8 Greyhounds, the M4A1/A2 shermans. The Tiger is a waste, the Panther is aight and the King Tiger is the best of all the German tanks. On the Allied side just spam M4A2 76W Shermans. They are the best value, cheap, fast, accurate deadly....the perfect tank. The 90 M3 is kinda slacking from what ive seen in comparison to the 76W. Also the 88mm flak gun is blind, deaf, dumb and doesnt kill anything. Ive driven and sat in front of 88's and they sit there like nothing is going on..so yeah Germans are dumbed down and Allieds, American army especially is pretty god like.

[KnightFandragon]

If u mouse over any tank in game it will show u their Minimum and maximum armor Thickness and when u are in direct control mode and u aim at something with AP ammo loaded it will tell you Approximately how much armor u can penetrate from that distance. So if your target has 40mm of armor and u can only penetrate 30mm of armor at that distance there is a good chance your shot will bounce off. Get closer to get better penetration.


That Penetration number and color is more a guideline then anything....from what ive seen it doesnt really mean much. Ther have been times ive had a red circle w/ less penetration then the armor im hitting and gone through. Then there have been times when Ive had green circle and far surpassed the armor and bounced....repeatedly. One fine example is the Pzr6B King Tiger w/ the porshe turret. Go in the Editor and put one in....then take a Mk2A matilda......get point blank, aim center of the hull and see what your penetration number is. From kissing range my number was like a Green 99 I think....the Frontal armor on a King Tiger is like 160ish......there is no way in the name of the King Tiger that 40 could go through yet if u fire it will blow it up....Hull Destroyed.....So yeah that Penetration number is kinda weird for sure. Plus the Weak spot on the Tiger I is right between the tracks where that track is laying on the front bumper...

[Nikitns]

Yeah American armour are a bit OP while German and soviet are under powered due to balance I guess (especially the Zis-2 gun - it was among the finest AT guns in WW2), but otherwise you are wrong. problem is you don't understand the mechanics of the game fandragon, you just have to play more.

tips: Check out the description for each tank and unit. Just make a server just with yourself in it, and right click on all the different units.

[Zeke Wolff]

Don´t forget that the King Tiger with the Porsche turret is actually an left over from Faces of War, and thus, has a faulty hit volume in the body section. Faces of War had a much simplified penetration system, where even a 37mm at-gun sooner or later could penetrate even the thickest frontal armor at any range.

~Zeke.

[Sarge]

lol the editor works with the unpatched version of the game and also has the wrong Penetration!

[Panzergranate]

Don´t forget that the King Tiger with the Porsche turret is actually an left over from Faces of War, and thus, has a faulty hit volume in the body section. Faces of War had a much simplified penetration system, where even a 37mm at-gun sooner or later could penetrate even the thickest frontal armor at any range.

~Zeke.

Not in real life though!!

The real Tiger I armour layout:

Upper Front = 100mm.
Lower Front = 100mm. @ 30 Degrees.
Upper Hull Side = 80mm.
Lower Hull Side = 60mm.
Upper and Lower Hull Rear = 80mm.
Deck & Floor = 26mm.
88mm. L56 maximum penetration = 165mm. @ 100m. @ 0 Degrees with Pzgr.39 APCBC shot.

The real Panther G armour layout:
Upper Hull Front = 80mm. @ 60 Degrees.
Lower Hull Front = 60mm. @ 60 Degrees.
Upper Hull Sides = 45mm. @ 30 Degrees.
Lower HUll Sides - 45mm.
Upper & Lower Hull Rear = 45mm. @ 60 Degrees.
Deck & Floor = 15mm.
75mm. L70 maximum penetration = 203mm. @ 100m. @ 0 Degrees with Pzgr.39 APCBC shot.

Maximum penetrations for the 37mm. L45 PaK 35 and KwK 36:

65mm. @ 100m. @ 0 Degrees with Pzgr.39 APCBC shot.
79mm. @ 100m. @ 0 Degrees with Pzgr 40 APCR shot.

In gunnery ballistics, if a gun with maximum penetration of 100mm. @ range X @ 0 Degrees hits a target with 50mm. of armour protection @ range X @ 0 Degrees, it has a 50% chance of pentration under the laws of physics.

If the target has 25mm. of armour it has a 75% chance.

If a target has armour inclined to 30 Degrees, this decreases the power of the incoming shot by 18%.

If the target has armour inclined to 60 Degrees, this decreases the power of the incoming shot by 34%.

Any shot hit at 72 Degrees or more will skid off. 72 Degrees, as anyone who skips stones on a pond, is recognised in physics as the "Skate Angle" where zero amount of impact force os transmitted to a surface.

A quick bash on a calculator will show that the German 37mm. PaK had no chnace of penetrating the front of a T34/76 A, B or C (60mm. @ 60 Degrees) even at point blank range with the Pzgr.39 APCBC shot, whilst the Pzgr.40 APCR shot would have less than a 10% chance at even point blank range.

The odds of penetrating the turret front are also equally grim (65mm.) as it would take a 1 in a 100 lucky shot to achieve with APCBC and not much better with APCR.

No wonder why the T34 rendered most of the German standard AT guns obstelete pretty much immediately.

The difference between a gun's maximum penetration and a target's armour defence is termed "the overkill factor". The 88mm. L71 and 88mm. L98 PaK / FlaK guns are notorious for their massive overkill factors versus their victims.

The British Army, back in the 1920's, when looking for a dedicated tank gun stipulated that it should have a 70% chance or better of penetrating an AFV with 8mm. of armour @ 500 yards with a first round hit. The Vickers 47mm. L31 3 Pounder tank gun could manage 27mm. @ 500 yards with APHE shell.

This benchmark has been updated to take into account thicker armour of typical targets, but still stands today for procurement.

Tank armour and steel are two completely different things. Steel contains a majority amount of Iron and is classed as an Iron Based Alloy.

Tank Armour contains 60 - 70% Nickel, 15 - 20% Copper, 10 - 15% Iron and varying quantities of Molybednium, Chromium and other special metals.

Therefore Tank Armour is classed as a Nickel Based Alloy.

Steel has a melting point of 1,300 Celsuis and Armour has a melting point of 3,800 Celsuis.

During WW2 the US made training versions of the M4 Sherman and M7 Priest SPG completely in steel as they didn't need to be armoured as they'd never see combat.

When computer games and wargame adopt true ballistics anti-armour mathematics, which has been around since the 1800's, tank battles will be more authentic.

[KnightFandragon]

Awesome post...nice to know all those things haha. So the T34 has 60mm of armor then eh? not the 47 that it has in game....thats kinda nice to know :cool: But yeah it would be pretty sweet to have a game that is based on RL penetration factors and what not. Then the Tiger would be truly a Tiger lolz

[KnightFandragon]

Soo....now that we know the RL penetration numbers and what not what does MoW do to calculate penetration/Damage and what not? Sure u have like a T34's 47 Hull Armor and hit it w/ a Pzr IV gun at 70m w/ a Penetration of like 60 or w/e it is. Then u target get like a Yellow Circle...but what other things does it factor in to Determine a bounce or Hull Destroyed? eh

[KnightFandragon]

Yeah American armour are a bit OP while German and soviet are under powered due to balance I guess (especially the Zis-2 gun - it was among the finest AT guns in WW2), but otherwise you are wrong. problem is you don't understand the mechanics of the game fandragon, you just have to play more.

tips: Check out the description for each tank and unit. Just make a server just with yourself in it, and right click on all the different units.

I guess your right...I must not understand the penetration mechanics for this game. Soo...I have been playing this game and messing in the editor. As of late ive modded a KV1 to 150mm of frontal armor Also gave it a gun that has insane penetration. Then I test it out with me as the controller vs some T34/85s I had modded. Improved the armor to 90 upped the gun a bit. Im currently in the editor on some random mission im messing w/ I have a T34 and my KV1. My Penetration numbers towards the T34 are like at 80m range a 135 Green or so and the armor of the T34 is 90mm frontal. My shell goes and bounces over and over and over. Then the T34's set up against me at the same 80m range is 112 Red into my 150mm yet it goes through or blows out my engine which is a 100 on the armor. Then on the same note if I simply put my self in the same T34, same setup, everything. The KV will blow me away like im an infantry guy getting hit w/ a Katyusha rocket.....so yeah...All in all I would like to know or have some understanding as to how this game generates its To Kill rolls b/c im friggin pretty annoyed at me having some insanly high To Kill number and bouncing or having far superior Armor and dying to a gun that doenst even have the TK # it needs to go through...

[LawL LawL]

Great discussion going on here, thought I might hop in. So, with the Tiger, what I find really weird is how the Panthers 75mm gun has better penetrating characteristics than the Tigers 88mm gun, which, if im not mistaken, is an adapted version of a Flak 88. But then when you look at the Rhino/Nashorn, Jagdpanther, Elephant, and King Tiger, which are all armed with a similar 88mm guns of some sort, they all bear equal penetration. How exactly does this work? I mean, sure, guns of varying power don't always result in the largest calibre weapon winning, but really? I really doubt weapons that were all adapted from the same original gun would have such a difference in penetration. Now for Axis armour in general, didnt they have out of the world crazy suspension systems way ahead of the era, so quite a few of their tanks had perfect firing accuracy when on the move? Furthermore MoW doesnt take into account the superior optics of German armour, which should impact how far they can see, maybe some form of ''clarity of vision'' or some other characteristic to be applied to the game. Also, I find alot of the time when it's green penetration, you fire, and you stare in dismay as the shot bounces off. I think thats just one of those One-in-a-Million shots, but then again, I did witness a T34/85 pump 3 rounds into the side of my KT at 20 meters, before being clobbered by a hastily summoned Nashorn... Three ''One in a million'' shots in a row? Anyways, Men of War is still by far the ABSOLUTE KING of all RTS games, in realism, fun, uber ownageness, playability, and even the somewhat befuddling mechanics at times, are still a large portion of what makes this, hands down, the best. Anyone that plays this and doesnt agree really needs to re-evaluate and look at what other games they play and how they compare with MoW. Furthermore, is anyone here a big fan of the Nashorn? I found it really effective AT, but huge problem I wasnt able to overcome was rapid micromanagement of it and other units at the same time, due to its paper armour. Lastly, I dont understand the Jagdtiger, its massive 128mm gun has worse penetrating capability than an 88, and alot of people say its worse than the KT, which overtime ive kinda seen, anyone here like it?

[Sarge]

All tanks are good and have their disadvantages, and for only newcomers say there is an ultimate Tank in the game. And even the tiger is in the hand of a prof a good Tank but thats hard to play with tiger^^

[KnightFandragon]

@Lawl Lawl

Nope, not a fan of any of the Assault Gun vehicles, Stug, JagdTiger, Nash...any of them. As for the 88mm Gun, in RL the 75 does have higher penetration then the Tiger's 88. The King Tiger and Nashorn actually have a better, longer KwK43 or something..its quite a bit better.

As for the Tiger in this game...its pretty bad. Its gun doesnt have Penetration much higher then a M4A1 Sherman 75mm gun.....at 50 the Tiger is like 92. At 50 the Sherman's is like 74 or so....Meanwhile the 76mm on the Brit tank at 50 is like 135 or something. Also, the Tiger, i have yet to hit one and have it NOT blow up.....IM afraid of that thing.....if its mine....

[Crni vuk]

All tanks are good and have their disadvantages, and for only newcomers say there is an ultimate Tank in the game. And even the tiger is in the hand of a prof a good Tank but thats hard to play with tiger^^

THing is that most tanks in MoW lack powerfull guns. See this short video of a T34 shooting a Panther in the flank. Sorry for the low resolution. It might be a birt hard to recognize. But the first shoot hits the flank of the Panther doing no damage at all just to see it rotate and shoot the T34 in flames.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o6iqMJ0v2rI

The tanks particularly the ones using medium / large guns like 85, 88, 122 and 152mm should be a lot more powerfull when they hit the side of tanks. Particularly such weak armored tanks like the panther. While it had good front armor even the 76mm of the T34 could already penetrate its side from I think 1000m. (mabye less I dont know it for sure, but at least the 85mm definetly can). Sadly I experience such situations as well with shooting the IS2, IS1 and KV85 flank with the Tiger I for example. Even the slightest angle can mean here issues which doesnt feel that believable to me even when thinking about it that the range of all guns is downsized for gameplay reasons the 88mm has a strong punch and should even on max distance (if you hit) penetrate always and do damage except of course for really bad angles. The only tank where I see taking damage to the side from the Tiger I sufficiently is the T34 in all its variants.