for new coming sim

[Stafroty]

hi

would it be possible to tune weapon damages and damage effects on next coming sim?

i mean, machine guns and cannon ap shells.

now in game, all piercing type of ammo (mgs and cannons) do deliver all their kinetic energy to the target area. (which in real life would mean that u can hide behind aluminium wing while its being shot with machineguns/cannons with ap rounds.)
if weapon delivers its kinetic energy to target, it means there is no more kinetic energy left for targets behind it. so no penetration is made.

and also. machinegun/cannon ap ammo does not make much damage to structure, like skin, only hole big as the caliber of the gun and going thru different layers and makin those holes in any material it is facin on its path, till all its KE is eaten by penetrations or there is nothign more to be penetrated, so rest of the damage doesnt land anywhere.

so, is it possible to code damage model so, that plane skin does have some kind of KE resistance value, as well structure value.

and when ap round penetrated skin/structure, it would not eat all its structure points according the kinetic damge of the round, but only small portion of it, depending how big structure it hits and how critical part that is.

this would make damage modellin huge but more realistic.

example.

1 13mm ap round lands on wing from rear. it goes thru skin, which takes it ke down bit, as well skin structure in that area would go down little. then bullet continues to internal stucture, its ke would be reduced again with the values those parts inside wing has, as well stucture points of those parts would lose some structural points as well. structural points are not reduced directly by calculatin weapon KE versus structure points but a fraction. smaller the cal, smaller the decrease of the structure points. round keeps going till its out of the wing or hits something which will eat its all KE. structure reduction should look the caliber of the round. wider the shell, more it would eat. like 7,92 would eat only 1 point, while 20mm would eat many times more. accoring the size of hole it would make.

and when skin is damaged cos of ap rounds, it should not decrease plane speed much or at all.

when it comes to HE rounds of cannons, its a different case. in that case it would be wise to use table damage like in il-2 now. reducing structure points quite sraight as well speed/skin of plane.

while cannon he ammo cant much penetrate deep in plane, can AP ammo do that. sure HA ammo can eat its way inside when parts are blasted away from its rounds path.

he ammo should be made to react as it was, to exlode on contact or with delay, going off inside the structure, which should give "overpressure" bonus to damage. or if outside, just normal damage.


am i askin here too much???

im just a guy who loves accuracy in damage model :)

editing bonus

also, more structure points of skin and structure is eaten up, more possible it is to bend wing on hard turn, like increacing its possibility to happen(in a way that u really cant know it for sure how much wing still can hold, it would make flying more scaring as u cant "read" ur damage just by lookin it. u would only see the damage which is visible on the surface, but whats happened internally is a total secret)

[Sturm_Williger]

...now in game, all piercing type of ammo (mgs and cannons) do deliver all their kinetic energy to the target area. (which in real life would mean that u can hide behind aluminium wing while its being shot with machineguns/cannons with ap rounds.)
if weapon delivers its kinetic energy to target, it means there is no more kinetic energy left for targets behind it. so no penetration is made.
...

Wow, is this the reason why it is so difficult ( well-nigh impossible ) to kill bomber gunners ? ie. rounds that strike aircraft parts almost never penetrate ?

Except gunners in player manned craft - is there a different algorithm running to ensure that the player could be hit ?

[=815=TooCooL]

With all those calculation and consideration, I sense slideshow fps.
Imagine it, ouch!

I'd choose 100 planes in the air with compromised DM over 8 planes with DM Ph.D.
Sure, your suggesion sounds good but one cannot have everything.
Maybe that's why BOB take so long, to have everything in one package.

[Viikate]

now in game, all piercing type of ammo (mgs and cannons) do deliver all their kinetic energy to the target area. (which in real life would mean that u can hide behind aluminium wing while its being shot with machineguns/cannons with ap rounds.)

You is wrong.

[Stafroty]

You is wrong.


how is i wronk?

do you mean that if part of the plane gets hit by ap ammo, that it doesnt deliver its damage according the damage table?

If if does damage amount according the table, it means it has delivered all its KE to target.


and if u talk about arcade arrows, yea, i know it.

but imagine a real life empty steel barrel- u shoot it with rifle fmj. it makes 2 holes in it. entry hole on shooters side and exit hole on the opposing side. yet bullet still continued its path after barrel, with quite a load of its original KE amount.

when we enter in matrix reality with sim rules to same area, with same rifle and same barrel. now, entry hole area gets all damage sucked in it as the round hits it, and yea, it still continues its path meter or two, and perhaps causin again max damage on that path which is againt common sense. can u see the point what im onto about in this thread?


that 8mm-13mm-20mm hole isnt doing much of an damage unless it hits something really vital, like pilot, engine, fuel lines, control cables.
that size of an hole on wing skin isnt doing almost anything to plane in real life, unless its path goes thru support structure, and if it hits support structure, and that structure is lot wider than the bullet hitting it, still, it doesnt much affect it much if it there isnt goin to be other rounds hitting that same area of structure as well, makin it cheese.


sure, its quite hard to put it realistically in game and yet so that game could be run. but i would give it a try to test how "accuratelly" it could be done, not to give it up as fast.


in my mind its buggy that AP and HE ammo does damage similar way, which isnt realistic. if 20mm He makes lets say 150 points of damage, counting in its HE content, Ke, and fragments, and lets say, .50 cal makes 40 points of damage according its ke.

this way raw calculated HE ammo is losing big time. many has seen various hit damages on real planes on different planes. now think about 13mm hole on structure and compare it to he blast of he shell. that rips skin, structures, makes overpressure inside which helps it to rip earlier even better, also sends fragments every direction, and affected area of damage is wider than feet/30cm if takin in damage of bended skin/structure. now compare that to 13mm little "needle" hole. no matter what tables say and calculations. u can find examples everywhere on ur own.

its 2 really different way effecting systems which isnt realistic to calculate similar way, imo.



http://www.daveswarbirds.com/b-17/photos/body/side2.gif A German 20mm shell peeled the metal covering off this bomber like skin off an onion. Note the small caliber bullet holes in the fuselage star.

[K_Freddie]

AFAIK, and have seen in game (IL2), Kynetic energy is modelled over distance travelled, but the IL2 damage model works on fairly large 'boxes' that have 'critical' ratings.

In Bob:SOW, there has been mention that the damage model is refined further, possibly where the boxes are a lot smaller... and as mentioned, to calculate all this with a gazillion pieces of hot copper flying around will have an effect on FPS.
:)

[Stafroty]

when IL-2 series got that german gotha flyin wing plane, i noticed something about kinetic energy over range in game. i was flying really fast with gotha on dive, and some pilot sprayed .50cal bullets after me at long distance. sure, bullet speed was decreasing over distance, but it seemed that damage bullets make wasnt.

i was nearly as fast as those bullets nearly of their maxium modelled range, and 1 bullet did hit my upper wing section with speed difference about 15km/h.
it penetrated skin and my fuel tank, causin a leak.

in real, it would have made only little mark on the paintwork of the plane.

[Flanker35M]

S!

Modelling damage in a game accurately is very hard without sacrificing performance. Damage boxes can be thin etc. but they are still boxes ;) In my opinion modelling damage and FM are the two most challenging things in a game.

As of what damage a bullet does. Due my work I've seen some test things of different ammo fired on a sheet of aluminum, thickness similar to aircraft skin. And after seeing that what 20mm or 30mm guns do I stopped worrying about IL2's very simplified damage model...go figure ;)

So if you want realistic DM, then we would have SoW - Damage Done :P If you want to fly, we got SoW - Laws of Aeromystique ;) You get the pic. You make valid points Stafro on the KE etc. but our poor PC's can't handle it.

Oleg has said in an interview, was it on SimHQ or elswhere has slipped my mind, that the DM in SoW is very complex but adjustable. How it will be we will see later this year I.

[Stafroty]

sheet is not same as plane structure :)

[JVM]

I'd choose 100 planes in the air with compromised DM over 8 planes with DM Ph.D.


Would you settle for "all aircraft less than 1 km close = PhD model, all the others simplified model"? Or something to that effect...I am sure OM is aware of the issue...

JVM