Logitech G940

[335th_GRSwaty]

I had the system for testing for 3 weeks.
In my opinion G940 is a very good solution, especially for IL-2.

Accurate and good force feedback,however needs time to set up forces to fit personal preferences.

Here is the link for the review (Greek)

http://www.hotas.gr/content/view/68/1/lang,en/

[Blackdog_kt]

I think pretty much everyone agrees that this is a good system with enough precision. What worries me is that some of Logitech's stuff is a bit fragile after lengthy use. In a few months it will be good to hear the impressions of someone who's used the system for a complete year.

Also, what happens if only one of the three peripherals needs replacement at some point? As i understand it, they use their own connector jacks, so you won't be able for example to substitute a pair of Saitek pedals if the Logitech ones stop working.

These are the most important issues for me, because they concern the use of the product during a depth of time (i know, i'm spoiled from using a sidewinder that's more than 10 years old :grin: ).

Final question, some people complain about a small "deadzone" in the middle of the stick's range of motion that they can't get rid off, no matter what settings they use in the profiler. Is this something that depends on what each person is used to with their previous joystick, or is it visible/tangible enough to be considered a manufacturing flaw?
I mean, since my sidewinder is so old there is a bit of "wobbling" around the center position where the response is slow or almost non existent. That doesn't bother me at all, because i don't want the aircraft to jerk around the sky everytime i move my little finger. After all, if i want to really move the stick the response is good. If the G940 is similar then i wouldn't mind since it would help cancel out the small, involuntary motions, but having more than a couple degrees of no-resposnse zone makes it harder to judge your inputs.

Thanks to swatty for the review and thank you to everyone who can shed some light on my questions above.

[335th_GRSwaty]

About potential replacement you are absolutely right.
G940 has unique connector jacks.I use Simped connected to Cougar (not USB) so I couldn't check if is possible to use another product.
The small "deadzone" in the middle you mentioned is there, but is a force feedback dead zone.You may not have forces very close to center.Need some time to adjust "Center Spring" setting and of course to get use the feeling.

I am flying with HOTAS Cougar for 8 years (Nxt II last 4) and wasn't easy to get use the FF.Took me a flying hour to get use to the new system.

I have also read many complains, but mostly regarding Black Shark.

[Vorondil]

I have one, and to my experience the 'dead-zone' referred to is not a "sensory dead-zone", but a "motory dead-zone" in the centering and resistance of the Force Feedback motors. It is present in all games that do not simulate a 'continuous centering-force' or 'constant axis-friction/resistance', which IL2 does not. IL2 only has FF-effects for specific events, such as cannon fire or bomb drops and such, but no constant in-flight axis centering or retention. In these cases the controller software has to use a generic FF-model for the axis movements, which appears to be a bit badly defined around the center. As mentioned above there is a centering force that can be tweaked in the software, but it does not remove the motory dead-zone entirely.

[Lucas_From_Hell]

As far as I know, which is really little, the G940 also suffers from the games themselves. I hope the next generation of flight sims is better fitted to handle such equipment without shortcomings.

People mention that this happens specially with DCS: Black Shark. I truly hope developers take more care to new equipment and making their exclusive features compatible with the simulators. Otherwise, it's just useless to have a good FFB system if it doesn't work properly.

As we're going to get a pretty good number of sims this year, we'll be able to evaluate the G940 precisely.

Swaty, can you try to translate the article? I'm trying to use Babel Fish but it's still really hard to get everything.

IMHO, if after a year of heavy use, the G940 is still working properly, I think it will be approved. My only concern about this system is durability.

So far, it seems that some issues appeared with DCS: Black Shark, but I guess that, with a driver update and DCS: A-10C, it will be good to go.

I put my bets on the G940, as it's a full flight system with accessible price. If the HOTAS Warthog from Thrustmaster is about the same price as the Cougar, then the Logitech losts it's main advantage against the competitors, at least for me (considering prices for Cougar + CH/Saitek pedals are between 280 and 300 USD, about the same price as the G940).

Still, it has Force Feedback, and that's a big plus. I guess we'll have to wait and see.

[335th_GRSwaty]

Lucas, there is a very good review at SimHQ

http://www.simhq.com/_technology2/technology_155a.html

The conclusion is pretty much the same!


Also there are some very interesting posts at forums.eagle.ru but site is down now.

[KG26_Alpha]

I have one, and to my experience the 'dead-zone' referred to is not a "sensory dead-zone", but a "motory dead-zone" in the centering and resistance of the Force Feedback motors. It is present in all games that do not simulate a 'continuous centering-force' or 'constant axis-friction/resistance', which IL2 does not. IL2 only has FF-effects for specific events, such as cannon fire or bomb drops and such, but no constant in-flight axis centering or retention. In these cases the controller software has to use a generic FF-model for the axis movements, which appears to be a bit badly defined around the center. As mentioned above there is a centering force that can be tweaked in the software, but it does not remove the motory dead-zone entirely.

IL2 does have constant centering tension, with MSFFB2 I feel the this all the time, more so especially as a stall approaches you go from soft to hard tension then buffeting on the stick, there a also specific event FFB occurrences, most of which I have removed from the FFB folder in IL2 directory as they were a bit unrealistic ie: canon and bump but you need the spring file in there to keep the overall tension.

[Lucas_From_Hell]

Also there are some very interesting posts at forums.eagle.ru but site is down now.

Thought it was only here... It's been pretty unstable recently, going out quite often.

Thanks for the link for SimHQ's review, I'll check it.

EDIT: Now just a question: how does it feel compared to the Cougar and Fighterstick? The stick's shape is a very different from the F-16's, does it changes much when flying or it's just a matter of getting used to it?

[Chivas]

If your used to hitting your target quickly I would avoid the G940 at-least until new drivers come out. The constant changes in force around the center and thru the x and y axis make targeting more difficult than it should be.
If your like most people and can't hit what your shooting at anyway, the G940 is a nice overall system. ;) Actually you can hit your target with the G940, but it takes a few seconds longer than with a more constant pressure stick...just long enough for his wingman to get in position to shoot you down.

[Lucas_From_Hell]

I'm already using force-feedback, so I'm somewhat used to aiming with the stick kicking all around. Plus, I can't hit a thing, anyway :mrgreen:

The transition to FFB is just a matter of getting used to the system. Then, it's all wonders :D

[Chivas]

I'm already using force-feedback, so I'm somewhat used to aiming with the stick kicking all around. Plus, I can't hit a thing, anyway :mrgreen:

The transition to FFB is just a matter of getting used to the system. Then, it's all wonders :D

Actually I'm not talking about the force feedback being the problem...its the centering motor pressures being non existant in a large area around the center of the stick and crude motor forces going thru the X and Y axis. There is usually very little force feedback when flying smoothly, what forces are applied are usually constant, so FF isn't the problem.

[Vorondil]

IL2 does have constant centering tension, with MSFFB2 I feel the this all the time...

Aah. It appears I had a few settings off, and now I do feel certain constant forces at various situations.

[KG26_Alpha]

Originally Posted by KG26_Alpha
IL2 does have constant centering tension, with MSFFB2 I feel the this all the time...
Aah. It appears I had a few settings off, and now I do feel certain constant forces at various situations.

I thought it was strange you didn't feel it :)


I'm already using force-feedback, so I'm somewhat used to aiming with the stick kicking all around. Plus, I can't hit a thing, anyway :mrgreen:

The transition to FFB is just a matter of getting used to the system. Then, it's all wonders :D

Remove all files from the forcefeed back folder in IL2 except:

mortar.ffe
spring.ffe

See how you get on :)

[335th_GRSwaty]

EDIT: Now just a question: how does it feel compared to the Cougar and Fighterstick? The stick's shape is a very different from the F-16's, does it changes much when flying or it's just a matter of getting used to it?

G940 is better than stock Cougar (with pots),accurate and quick.
I use Modded Cougar.I can say that is very easy to get use the Forces and set up.

I had G940 at 17 Dec and 20th went online.If you check the diagram below (no scientific and no technical ) you will see that after 2 days offline flying with G940, I was still the same bad pilot I use to be before!!

http://games.alkar.net/games/il2/stat/pilot/1404/0/

I don't have CH products ,so I can't tell about Fighterstick.

The stick shape maybe a problem for some guys because is thinner than Cougar and there is a hut,the ministick and 4 buttons on top panel.

[Lucas_From_Hell]

Thanks, Swaty.

Even if I went for Cougar, I wouldn't modify it in any way. It's too expensive.

But a question, what do you think about durability? Shall it last long enought to make it worth the price? Everyone heard of the sturdiness of the Cougar, Fighterstick and everything, and I guess their sucessors (Warthog and A-10 HOTAS) will have the same durability, but Logitech doesn't have a very good record on this matter when it comes to FFB sticks. This is turning some people away from the G940, and declining it without even giving it a chance. I don't know if you have played with it for enough time to give a final veredict, but from your first impression, does it seem sturdy?

[335th_GRSwaty]

Well,I really don't know...
Was my first experience with Logitech product.Looks good but you can never can tell.

I didn't like the sound of motors while stand by,the more they work the less life time they may have.

I guess, soon we will have more input from users they bought it and use it everyday.

In my opinion if someone is happy with his current flight system should wait,but is a good solution for someone who needs now a flight system.

Personally,I wouldn't switch Cougar+simped for G940 but if I would suggest it as an option to a buddy who starts IL-2 now.
Is not cheap, but the price is close to any similar solution. For instance X52 Pro & Pro Flight Rudder Bundle costs 255-268 €,CH set about 300€ e.t.c.

[MikkOwl]

G940 Opinions after using daily for one week. Will write many small points without any organization or structure for maximum substance with minimum text. Focus on things that are not mentioned as much by others, and also comment on the controversial parts everyone talks about. Some abilities, functions, good points etc are not covered. It is a close analysis/opinion of what I thought of the product foremost, written from the perspective of how things, if any, could be improved. I'll try to pass this along to Logitech as they like hearing constructive feedback.
I have a CH Combat Stick from way back, and a CH Throttle from the same time period. Also a Logitech Extreme 3D Pro. I have not tried the other offerings except a bit in stores (unlugged). Read a lot about them however, and how they compare.

Near the end there is some more flowing writing on the impressions as a whole, how it affected the flying, and the last bit contains some control setup suggestions.

- I have large hands (Size "L" gloves). The stick and throttle fits well, size wise. The rudder pedals, despite being among the widest, if not the widest, of the available pedals from popular makers, are too close together compared to real aircraft. The pedals are adequately large.

Recommendation to Logitech: Widen the spacing between the pedals. We have room under our desks, and the box can be repackaged.

- Ergonomically, while the stick is 'just fine' to grip, the Logitech 3D PRO (non force feedback) with it's very organic, flowing lines and forward tilted design is superior for hand comfort. G940 stick feels and looks far more authentic however. The pedals can cut into one's lower heels a bit after a while and are really meant to be used with slippers or shoes.

Recommendation to Logitech: Modify the lower lip of the pedals to make them rounded instead of rectangular, and add optional softeners or whatever to allow for sock or bare feet operation with greater comfort.

- All buttons are different types of good quality plastic except the index finger trigger, which is made of metal. The buttons are more solid than average but most have a slight amount of looseness when touched but not pressed down. It is slight enough to be felt as 'good quality'. The throttle base buttons (8 of them) are completely solid and feel very chunky and great to press down or touch. Throttle buttons make a dampened sound while the rest make a plasticky 'click', and the metal two stage trigger first make a micro-switch click and then a dampened plastic click when pushed all the way to stage 2.

Recommendation to Logitech: None necessary.

- Stick has two hats - castle-type hat (DPAD) made of plastic lower, and a metal 'coolie' hat upper which is analogue with spring resistance (like a small joystick) and can also be pressed down like a button. It's completely silent. The lower is a castle hat which feels solid and is noiseless. The top joystick (mini-joystick) hat requires grip change to move your thumb high enough to manipulate it, and it's tricky to apply enough force with your thumb to click it down. The lower hat can be accurately manipulated but grip must be altered slightly to reach it.

Recommendation to Logitech: Relocate the 'mini joystick' functionality from top of stick to one of the throttle hats. The top mini-joystick coolie hat is the hardest to reach of the four hats, and is mounted on an already moving, most critical part of the controller, which is also unstable due to force feedback. This is the worst placement of the four hats it could be placed on and it is the least useful there.

- Throttle has two hats. Again a metal coolie hat and a plastic castle (DPAD) hat. Both are digital type. Unlike the stick hats, they have some loose play in the middle (when touching but not trying to push them) and don't feel entirely solid. They also make sounds when pressed, unlike the stick hats. Easily go into 'diagonal' positions (between up and left for example), even inadvertedly. They are easy to reach and manipulate with thumb from an ergonomic standpoint. Resistance is too light for general use and when trying to find them with your thumb in anticipation of needing to press them, it happens easily that you push them in a direction unintentionally. Care must be taken in the heat of the moment, and in dogfights it may not be suitable to assign important system functions to them. My CH Combat Stick had a bunch of hats that were far more solid (and loud) and would never be set off by accident, and I preferred that. G940 hat setup with very light, fully directional with ease in any direction is exactly the way one would want hats to be when bound to snap views in a sim, as the view will return to forward normal as soon as the hat is not pulled, and a momentary accidental touch makes no difference.

Recommendation to Logitech: If the mini-joystick hat from stick moved here, that serves well for looking around purposes. The other hat should be tightened, resistance added and forgo the ease of diagonal movement.

- The throttle has four buttons mounted on the grip itself. Two on the back, for different parts of the index finger, which are both easy to reach and press regardless of position. Two for the thumb on the side, of which the ease of pressing depends highly on your grip - one can say that there are two ways to hold the throttle, one is 'wrapped' around it similar to when it's pushed all the way forward, in which case the buttons get closer to the cup of your hand, and the thumb 'overshoots' the two thumb buttons and comes to rest almost perfectly on the upper DPAD hat - pressing either thumb button then requires one to retract the hand (so that the back buttons are no longer in position) so the thumb aligns with the buttons - the thumb cannot bend inwards and back enough to press the buttons, which are at the base of the thumb. It's 'kind of' possible to use the mid joint of the thumb to press them, but it does not feel natural or ergonomical. If the throttle handle is pulled back (low setting) the palm of the hand no longer touches the grip, only the front fingers rest on it, and the thumb can then rather easily reach the buttons. These issues are not significant, and one often moves the hand position on the throttle when flying, finding a button or hat is very fast and easy. Yet for critical instant reachable functions, the index finger buttons on the back are the way to go (say, radio transmit button, weapons, zoom etc).

Recommendation to Logitech: None necessary.

- The stick has four buttons on the top part, on either side of the two hats. The lower row can be reached without changing the grip (the right one, barely), with the left thumb button being painted red, and I use it for cannons. Took some getting used to, but I like the idea of having setups similar to the pilots and planes of the 30's and 40's. The two top ones are impossible to use as weapons if maneuvering, one cannot reach them without changing the grip significantly. The lower left-mid stick thumb button, index finger dual stage trigger and the pinky button are all instantly pressable.

Recommendation to Logitech: None necessary.

- There is adjustable resistance on the throttle through a rotator wheel underneath it. The bad part is that to get medium (what I was looking for) resistance one has to turn the wheel with great force which was painful for my hands.

Recommendation to Logitech: More resistance possible with less resistance in the wheel underneath. Possibly switch to hex wrench or other tool-required adjustment method instead of hand turned plastic wheel.

- There are two indents (notches) in the travel near the minimum and maximum, called afterburner detents by some. These are only barely noticable, the point being too soft and vague when moving the throttle towards max power. Oddly they are more proper noticable when coming down from max power (moving in the other direction over the same notch, which is not as helpful. In general they are not noticed under normal operation and they make a slight strange noise when passing over them, on this high tension I set it to.

Recommendation to Logitech: Improve or remove throttle indents, for now they do not work in a useful way.

- The throttle feels meaty and it is a great feeling to fly with one's hand on it. I found myself making a lot of adjustments without even thinking, and taxiing on the landing strip has never been so fun. It has a slightly hollow feel, both from the resistance to movement and the hollow acoustics (sounds) eminating from inside it when skin rubs against it, pressing buttons or those slight sounds made when passing over the indents in the travel. Compared to my CH Throttle it feels far better. But for proper feel, one needs great sealed headphones (I have) and to remove the HUDlog in IL-2 so that you don't see those % of power when flying, which would otherwise completely remind you that you're not in a plane and your throttle is not mechanically linked to anything.

Recommendation to Logitech: Reduce hollow acoustics. I am not a real engineer, but possibly rubberize parts, add cheap iron weights attached to different interior surfaces to absorb vibrations and add weight, or try to fill the interior hollow compartments with solid blocks of cheap plastic or other material.

- Trim wheels, there's five of them. Two on throttle, three on stick. People complained about not feeling the 'center' which I can relate to in some situations, but I do not consider this an issue. My issue is that they have very light resistance, especially the wheel on the back of the throttle, so any accidental touch can lead to them being moved. This has so far not been a problem on the throttle in IL-2, and I do not use the three trims on the stick for trimming (use the knob for volume control! Best thing ever).

Recommendation to Logitech: Add more resistance to wheel movement.

- The trim wheels on the joystick base are unergonomic to use for trimming when flying, because they are intended to be used with your throtte (left) hand. If people fly with the controllers on a desk and sit on an office chair, it works well, but mine are on my left and right side respectively. It takes quite some reaching to get the left hand over to the right side while still gripping and keeping the stick centered in flight. Of course one can let go of the stick and use the right hand, but the stick does not center when not gripped so it is a difficult way to trim.

Recommendation to Logitech: Trim wheel relocation to the throttle, offset to preferably the left of center in a longitudinal row, with the base slightly widened there to avoid inadverted trimming by brushing with the lower arm. They would act more like real trims or controls in any aircraft in this position, also when used for non-trim functions.

- The eight base buttons on the throttle base, are awesome! They shine very clearly in different colors, and one can customize their text via inserting a small piece of paper with the function printed on it. They also feel good, quality and meaty to touch and to press. I cannot wait to see them utilized fully for different systems and functions in simulators. I am aware that others have mentioned that they are too uniformly mounted and similar due to this, making them harder to find by touch, and I can relate to this. But I can also realize that they are not intended as a "HOTAS, eyes on screen" operation. As they are marked and have different lights, taking eyes off screen to glance at them is how it is done, and this is made simple and fun due to the lights and markings. Rearranging the buttons could work, but if the buttons change shape in any way, the cost would go up and customization also more difficult. There have been complaints of accidental button presses by having one's lower arm resting over the buttons. This critique is justified. Especially if mounted on a desk, where the throttle is very high in relation to the body, with the arm coming in from 'below'. Logitech has partly anticipated this issue in their industrial design. The entire throttle base surface is sloped about 15 degrees towards the user. The buttons have raised seperator indents between them, minimally taller height than the buttons. It is a good idea, but it does not adequately protect the buttons from being pressed. The buttons provide a nice amount of resistance before they are pressed, but the travel is only about two millimeters. To avoid this the best way is to lower the throttle and put it more back in relation to a typical desk.

Recommendation to Logitech: Increase slope by double or triple. Mount buttons slightly closer to each other on the X-axis and lower their mounting by a few millimeters. They are currently mounted on a raised plate for the sake of appearance, perhaps something can be done with this too. If mounted closer together, the base top widened a bit, the issue would be lowered and the trim wheels from joystick could fit there longitudinally as well, without risk of brushing either.

- The rudder pedals have a knob for adjustable resistance. Even when I pulled it as hard as I could, it was not much. They have a set level of self-centering, but this does not increase by adding resistance, rather the opposite - self-centering spring force is too weak to overcome the friction of added resistance to even return to center if one takes the feet off them, and the centering force is much harder to feel when the friction in the movement is higher. I had a hard time flying due to this initially, until I lowered the tension to make them much lighter in resistance (try setting them a bit looser than the point where they center themselves without any outside force) - only then did they work properly.

Recommendation to Logitech: Increase self-centering force much. Increase possible resistance. Rework resistance adding mechanism to not require so insanely much force to turn it up.

- The rudder pedals are pretty much noiseless in operation except that they make a 'clack' sound when reaching the end of the travel in both directions. This can be loud when on a floor or against a wall, and I am going to have to try to modify mine somehow to lower this noise, lest I bother or wake up others - the vibration is transmitted straight into the floor/wall.

Recommendation to Logitech: Add rubberized stops to the end of the travels, or better ones if they are there already.

- Rudder pedals in general are fairly 'solid' and I don't think they will break. There's some flex in the metal pedals mounting that can be noticed mainly by looking at it when moving the feet around. It is small and does not interfere with operation in any way. Some have reported it as super solid, some said they seem 'flimsy'. The reality is somewhere in between. Can't feel it when feet are on them and using them like rudders, but can see it, especially with forces applied not in the center of the pedals. Uses hardcore plastic assembly which has a little bit of plastic deformity to them (non plasticity deformation is when deformations are permanent, if I'm not mistaken). They tip forward, one axis each, as wheel brakes. This is hard to use if the legs come in angled too far down, like in my case when I sit in a lower than usual chair. I have made them usable again by angling the pedals upwards against the wall a bit.

- The force feedback operation is pretty much noiseless when dealing with spring forces (pulling or resisting movement). Any kind of vibration or other effect can be loud however, so one must take care to not have too much when others can be bothered by noise. On a reasonable setting that feels mostly adequate, it is okay, but I would have liked even quieter, or to be able to crank it up even more without the added noise.

Recommendation to Logitech: Attempt to lower the sound of the vibrational effects.

- Moving the stick with no resistance (either due to setting, the game situation or unplugged power) there's no resistance at all, it's silky smooth. When there is resistance and it pulls at you suddenly, it's also silky smooth. It's when you are pulling in a controlled way against forces resisting you that a notchy resistance can be felt. If one looks at the stick, one can see that one moves it a few millimeters at a time, as if between the cogs inside, as you pull it more and more in a direction. Others have described this as a 'gravely' feel.

Recommendation to Logitech: A smoother resistance without notchiness of any kind is desired

- When not touching the stick, it can make hard-drive similar sounds that continue until you touch it a few times so it ends up in a position where it doesn't try to resist/adjust the position slightly. This is due to the motors rapidly changing direction with low force output. This is of course, a nusiance.

Recommendation to Logitech: Firmware upgrade to reduce this behaviour. Option to just shut off all self centering when not holding it would be a welcomed option.

- The force feedback the stick is capable of is impressive. It's moderately strong (I have nothing to compare to except force feedback wheels, like my G25) although I have no problems overcoming it. It is able to change directions and responds extremely quickly to anything. In the stick test screen one can try out all kinds of wacky things it's capable of. Clearly the simulators on the market that I play, at least, don't make use of all this functionality. When it keeps applying swift opposite forces it will positively, always, yank your hand around with it, which is impressive and fun.
The buffeting/shake of IL-2 is expertly fun. I fly differently now than before, respect the plane much more, don't push it as hard. It moves about so much as you push near stall, or you are traveling a wee-bit too fast in a dive ;) that I get honestly nervous about how hard I push the airframe to it's limits. The shake can absolutely move your aim and/or attempted precision flying off course a bit, which I find immensely gratifying. People who play in a way to have the equipment that gives them the most advantages (no matter how unreal) over their opponents will not appreciate it. I fly for immersion however, and I love it.

The resistance to movement when flying faster or slower can be felt noticably, especially in the 'lower' registry. It's just about completely limp at around 130Km/h and progresses to most of it's full force by 300-350km/h, possibly depending on the plane. Above that the differences are not easily felt, if at all. This is due to IL-2, which is programmed to respond with this limited range (the old sticks of the day weren't exactly the strongest with the longest throw - for users to feel a difference it had to be concentrated in a certain range). The 'sloppy center' people talk about for IL-2 is real, and is due to IL-2's use of force feedback, again from shorter throw old sticks of the day. This has a largely negative effect in that there's a 'wall of force' that you suddenly feel when moving off center enough, which instinctively feels like the end of the movement range of a spring joystick. One has to pull beyond this wall to 'get into' the range of force feedback resistance, which is not a natural or progressive feeling. The stick is capable of fairly hardcore center force (try only self-centering set to 150% with the rest off to see what I mean) where only a square CM or a bit more in the middle is devoid of immediate resistance - no doubt very realistic, but alas, IL-2's tolerances are set too low. If it was properly set up, the speed-wind-resistance on controls would be far more noticable, and there would be a linear smooth resistance from the beginning of the motion making everything easier, more realistic, predictable, smooth etc. As such, IL-2, while being among the best force feedback user currently, is not in any way an indicator of what this stick could be like when flying when set up right.

An afterthought - while all effects are extremely fast to start, even the rotational vibration devices inside, some can take just a moment to 'wind down'. When shooting cannons in IL-2 it starts directly and chugs along, but when I stop shooting it can lag just a little bit. This is for heavy slow RPM effects - for MG's at high RPM I did not notice.

Recommendation to Logitech: Apply more pressure on developers to patch in better force feedback in older titles. Also develop own workarounds that can be makeshift solutions if such a thing is possible at all. I have read others' suggestions and thought about it myself, and the issue is undoubtedly more complicated for Logitech than we appreciate. There's no way for the stick to know how it should behave beyond what IL-2 tells it (i.e. the center slop play - it wouldn't know what to do. It can of course be set to add self-centering when in the slop zone, but it would not know when to increase this or decrease this as the plane speeds up or slows down. When stalling out the center would still try to center, and when moved beyond a point it would become completely limp. This is why that is not such a great solution).

- A serius bug: whenever reversing direction of any of the non hall-sensor axises (unsure of the rudder), including the twin throttle and the trim wheels, the input in the games/dxTweak etc makes a jump on the scale. This has been documented by other users. For example, you are flying with throttle at 50%. You want to move it up to about 75% or therabout. As you move the throttle forward, it's completely accurate and smooth. You move it just a wee bit too far, though, perhaps at 76%. You try to move it back tiny bit to 75%. As soon as you start moving it back even the slightest, it jumps directly down to 72%. Reverse direction and move it forward again, it again jumps to 76%. To reach 75% exactly then one must be more than 4% away and come easing in from one direction only, stopping where intended. Every reversal of direction results in this. Even trim wheels.

Recommendation to Logitech: Update the firmware ASAP. LogitechMark has confirmed this bug and that they are working on fixing it in the next software update.

- The two throttle axises report strangely in the DxTweak tool. They don't move over the entire range, although this is not a problem in-game. However, the Logitech Profiler 4.08 is affected by this. I tried mapping zones to the throttles to use keyboard presses to control twin engined planes (i.e. move throttle at this position and it sends the button bound in IL-2 to switch to engine 1, and then a keypress to send the power setting). The result is that the own profiler also only recognizes what DxTweak sees, limited range of motion in the middle of the registry only (moves from about 25% to 75%). As such only some zones in the middle could be triggered and not at all in the correct physical throttle position. This is, undoubtedly, a bug. I don't know if it has been reported yet.

Recommendation to Logitech: Squash this bug. Preferably the reporting in DxTweak too, as it makes me nervous.

- The accuracy of the hall sensors is outright amazing. That, coupled with the force feedback and the rigidity of the stick, I'm flying on less curved stick input in IL-2 - the forces help and the accuracy tracks supremely. A good thing, no doubt. The other axises are pots, but seem nicely accurate as well, with the exception of the horrid bug mentioned above.

Recommendations to Logitech: Everyone is worried about precision and durability. Don't let us down. I would go as far as recommend that a permanent solution be found in the ability for the user to easily open the chassis and replace a pot in a couple of minutes (not using welds, but snap on contacts), to ensure very long term durability.

- The stick is very, very rigid. Having used a much sloppier 'twist' stick before this with a hollow feeling grip and slight flex, this is hardcore. It has absolutely no looseness in it's mounting of any kind in any direction, except little less than a millimeter the twist direction, barely percievable.

Recommendations to Logitech: Keep up the good work.

- The software used, Logitech Profiler, is okay. It is not advanced nor basic. I am using autohotkey to set things up just the way I want.

- The stick with it's force feedback does not ever slide around or need something to help it stay put, unlike other sticks I have seen in videos on youtube. The footprint is pretty large and it has very grippy rubber pads in each corner. A testament to it, is that in order to get it as close as possible next to my chair on the right, it is set so that the lower left edge extends past the edge of a small serving table I have it on. It is relying on only three corners to keep it up. The rubber pads extend a bit underneath so to compensate for the fourth one not touching the table I put in a piece of a Q-tip to brace it level underneath.

---------------

THOUGHTS

The G940 has flaws, which do not ruin it and the experience. Flying with it took the experience forward a whole lot (took some time to get used to the rudders, that people fly with those things. I kept seeing it mentally as being a steering wheel, with my feet on it, thus to go left I'd try to rotate the axis left (i.e. right pedal forward, left back. Leading to right rudder input.) :D Took a bit of practice. When I set the resistance lower it worked much better. Before then, when self centering was too weak due to higher resistance, I would often not even realize that the pedals were resting totally offset, which was frustrating. No problems now.

The throttle close on the lower left, the stick on the right, the pedals, the feel of the grips, the great force feedback effects (Those that are implemented, and the not as well implemented ones) - it feels cockpit snug, authentic, downright scary with all the imposing buffeting, vibrations, getting near hits or hits by flak, enemy cannons and so on. It's an awesome feeling to be climbing up after someone in a zoom and feeling how it gets lighter and lighter. In planes that keep up their RPM on the propeller before, I could simply not see or feel it at all except looking at a speed indicator (don't need any HUD stuff now, I can use instruments and go on force resistance to tell me how fast I am). Landing and taking off is more difficult and very imposing. When landing, there's no resistance at all basically but there's nasty vibrations from the airframe from the turbulence around the flaps and the landing gear, and maybe the propeller if moving slow. You sure feel slow and in a dangerous position. I was surprised over how great the throttle really felt like to use in immersion and authenticity, and how much rudders added. Not much more functional than my G25 pedal setup, but the feeling is totally different. It feels like 'plane!'.

The step up from G25 pedals as rudder, Saitek quadrant for throttle (not quite a hands on throttle) and a non FF joystick is a large one. Not as large as getting a TrackIR 5, headtracking so smooth and yet instantaneous and accurate, I join the crowd who say "How the hell did I not get this before? I cannot fly without it ever again", and recommend getting that before these things. For the rest, this is probably the best, despite the flaws, offering available. Newer titles with proper FF support and using the colored buttons should extend it's superiority except for fly by wire type jet planes, and for those competitive types of people who care about winning rather than immersion flying online.

--------------

VIEW SETUP ADVICE (With headtracking).

Many people probably use the dual stage trigger in the following way, which is easiest: Stage 1 = MG. Stage 2 = MG + Cannons. I don't, I think that is gamey and unrealistic. I put cannons (weapon 2) to the thumb trigger on the upper left side, where it belongs, more similar to the KG-11 to 13 sticks used by the luftwaffe etc. Also using a TrackIR setup, I went through many types of setups until I found the most cunning convinient ones. I hope this can inspire to improve view controls efficiency and simplicity. Parts of it would work on other sticks as well:

Dual stage trigger:
Half press (when held) = FOV 55. About the same as real field of view would be through the monitor of my size and the distance I sit from it. This means objects appear as large and far away as they would in real life. This is for observation and for all my gunnery work. It helps a lot. Since the index finger is always on this trigger, I can go to this midway fov at any moment instantly for observation, for when about to take a shot at a bandit, or when already shooting. Releasing the trigger resets to WIDE FOV (the default in this setup). OPTIONAL: if one has worse headtracking gear, perhaps a home made FreeTrack with 6DoF, or just flying a plane where it's very hard to bend to see the gunsight, I have the option to set it so that the half-trigger also sets into gunsight position (you know, Shift F1), so that whenever one is about to shoot, gunsights are always aligned. Useful for badly set up planes like the Me-262 where one cannot possibly bend down to the gunsight in 6DoF mode. And again, releasing the half-trigger resumes normal cockpit view. I find I don't need this most of the time due to the accuracy of the TiR5. Autohotkey is required to make FOV return to wide when releasing the button.

Full press = fire MG (still in FOV 55).

Upper red trigger button = Cannons (weapon 2).

Mid-stick left-thumb button (the thumb normally rests over this) = center TrackIR (used often due to real-view translation issues and so on. Instant accessability helps situational awareness and gunnery).

Pinky button (pinky is always in contact with it) = Maximum zoom and 'precision' (smoothing) mode of the headtracking, as long as it is being held. Get instant detail views of anything in the surroundings, for close up view of some instrument or for some long range shooting work (it overrides the half-trigger FOV). Releasing puts back into normal mode, wide FOV. Autohotkey is required to make the fov return to wide when releasing the button, and even more necessary to make it override the FOV of the half-trigger above and not get wonky behaviour.

And that's it. There's three levels of FOV for details, for general true perspective and gunnery, and for wide view awareness. In real life, our eyes do all three at the same time even better than this game, due to the limitations of the pixel size and the monitor only taking up, as in my case, 55 degrees of my field of view. Three levels of fovs is enough to cover these three adequately. The instant availability and the functionality of ALWAYS resetting to wide fov makes it as simple as need be to regain situlational awareness when in a wild dogfight (I recall how things were like before, especially before the trackIR, but even after, with zoom levels and all that). The best part is, so much functionality in just two buttons. I felt like the G940 dual stage trigger was a waste if I didn't use both buttons when set up realistically, but this solved it perfectly.

I have the big knob (Trim 3) on the stick base set up as my volume knob. Works just like you would imagine. Don't have to reach for the keyboard's volume shortcuts anymore. Autohotkey is necessary to bind an axis to the system volume.

Even though twin throttles do not work in IL-2 yet, a quick way of getting around managing two engines and if they need seperate start (as dictated on some servers) is to bind one of the throttle hats, the lower one preferably, to select engine 1 when pulled up, engine 2 when down, and all engines when pushed forward. Operation is nearly as fast as with two throttles. This works on non-G940 setups too, of course.

A button on the base of the stick is the MASTER ARM switch. It just toggles wether or not weapons can be fired/dropped when their buttons are pressed. Autohotkey is necessary for this behaviour (one programs a setting that is SAFE = ON or OFF, a button is bound to toggle this, and then one binds the stick buttons so that when pressed, they only press the right keys for firing stuff if the safety is set to OFF, otherwise nothing happens). I find that it's more necessary to be careful of weapons firing when having that half-trigger and the force feedback effects going about.

[MikkOwl]

what happens if only one of the three peripherals needs replacement at some point?
Judging from the forum stories of how Logitech support was like with the G25 wheel, they will ask you to disconnect and send that specific part in and they send a replacement. Generally the support seemed most generous and willing to please, at times not even asking for the defunct unit to be returned, and simply dispatch a new one directly.

As i understand it, they use their own connector jacks, so you won't be able for example to substitute a pair of Saitek pedals if the Logitech ones stop working.
Are the Saitek pedals not USB? If they are, one would simply connect them to a free USB port and use them instead of the G940 pedals if one so wished.

a small "deadzone" in the middle of the stick's range of motion that they can't get rid off, no matter what settings they use in the profiler. Is this something that depends on what each person is used to with their previous joystick, or is it visible/tangible enough to be considered a manufacturing flaw?
You can get rid of it by using the stick with a sim that makes use of the whole range for force feedback. Alternatively, enable self-centering, which leaves only a minimal zone in the middle where the forces aren't pulling. The stuff you mention is IL-2 implementation (and other games) of force feedback, set up to have a sizable zone in the middle where no pulling forces can reach. Game implementation of force feedback needs to be made with smaller tolerances for the hardware now available.

my sidewinder is so old there is a bit of "wobbling" around the center position where the response is slow or almost non existent. That doesn't bother me at all, because i don't want the aircraft to jerk around the sky everytime i move my little finger. After all, if i want to really move the stick the response is good. If the G940 is similar then i wouldn't mind since it would help cancel out the small, involuntary motions, but having more than a couple degrees of no-resposnse zone makes it harder to judge your inputs.
Agreed on the difficulty of judging the inputs. If I understand things correctly, the sidewinder2 from way back had a fairly short throw (range of motion), meaning that the zone in the middle is also, by extension, smaller. The G940 moves maybe 50 degrees from full left to full right deflection (25 degrees either direction from center). But as we know, it's the way IL-2 force feedback was set up way back in the day when those old sticks were around. Nothing much happened since until now. Logitech is pressuring and helping companies tidy up their crappy force feedback implementations, and the G940 has a chance of being a big success like the G25 wheel was, leading to direct support from developers who know that there's a customer group that has this hardware and wants to make good use of it.

I wrote in detail in my long wall of text earlier here on page 2, which may help you understand the G940 in general better.

IL2 does have constant centering tension, with MSFFB2 I feel the this all the time, more so especially as a stall approaches you go from soft to hard tension then buffeting on the stick, there a also specific event FFB occurrences, most of which I have removed from the FFB folder in IL2 directory as they were a bit unrealistic ie: canon and bump but you need the spring file in there to keep the overall tension.
You are both right, and wrong. IL-2 simulates, in a simplified way, the resistance encountered by the speed of the wind moving over the control surfaces of the wings, when trying to move the stick. Faster speed (unstalled) means more tension, while lower speed (or in stall) means lower or no resistance. But IL-2 is using no relative center but an absolute center of the stick. Even if I trim the plane and do all kinds of things to make sure that, in real life, the stick should be forcefully be moving forward or back due to the forces acting upon the control surfaces of the wings, absolutely nothing happens. The center is unaffected. And worse, they put the treshhold for at how much input needs to be given from the joystick pretty high before the 'wind resistance' on the control surfaces can be felt through force feedback. This gives the 'sloppy center' where there's no effects from the control surfaces, and which is no where near as good as it could have been had they utilized the full range, or even gone with relative center (i.e. the forces could then pull to want to center the stick forward or backward depending on how you trim, you would instantly feel the effects of trimming the plane through the forces and so on).

Can you imagine how it would be like to fly like that? Relative center, true forces acting, the trims.. the stick is more than capable of this, but we haven't gotten to try it out yet. Can't wait!

how does it feel compared to the Cougar and Fighterstick? The stick's shape is a very different from the F-16's, does it changes much when flying or it's just a matter of getting used to it?
The shape of grip and trigger is less square and more rounded, circumference of grip is slightly smaller and the in-reach buttons are a bit easier to manipulate. I haven't flown with my CH Combat Stick (F-16) since the early 2000's and it behaved awfully, so I cannot draw any parallels to the sticks you mention. I have size "L" (large) hands and I find the shape to be a better fit and more ergonomic. Maybe not wearing F-16 nomex pilot gloves also helps? :)

If your used to hitting your target quickly I would avoid the G940 at-least until new drivers come out. The constant changes in force around the center and thru the x and y axis make targeting more difficult than it should be.
If your like most people and can't hit what your shooting at anyway, the G940 is a nice overall system. Actually you can hit your target with the G940, but it takes a few seconds longer than with a more constant pressure stick...just long enough for his wingman to get in position to shoot you down.
The vibration effects of the weapons firing is adjustable, though even at high settings I dont think it interferes with the accuracy. When taking unloaded shots (correctly trimmed, don't need to apply force to the stick) it is as easy as any other high end stick these days I would gamble. But definitely, when pulling G's + being untripped and experiencing buffeting, it is more difficult to hit. Part of it is the immersion, I think. It's more apparently stressful and urgent what kind of stresses you are putting on your plane with the feedback you are getting. More tense moment one might say.

[335th_GRSwaty]

Wow MikkOwl!

Thanks for posting,I think this is a really helpful post!You said pretty much everything someone has to know to decide!

[Sokol1]

MikkIwk

Nice post!

Autohotkey is required to make FOV return to wide when releasing the button.

You can share your Autohotkey scrips?

Sokol1

[MikkOwl]

Sure, I can share the autohotkey scripts. I must say, that night I spent a couple of months ago learning how it works was more than well spent - it's super helpful in customizing anything to one's liking, especially with sims. I do not have the scripts prepared for public use, and I have this one 'basic' that I run for myself with some nonsense in it. What kind of functionality would you be interested in? I will have to clean out that specific part and add some commentary so you can easily swap in the keys you want.

------

I spent more time tinkering with the G940 in and out of IL-2 by the way.

- With effects raised enough, yes, it can be a bit hard to hit stuff from a distance, even when flying level. Hardcore effects.

I found and used two different force feedback programs. One is an editor made by Microsoft from their directX SDK for developers, and I can open and edit the IL-2 force feedback files with it. I already changed the vibration of the machine gun file to about 20 vibrations per second - the RPM of both the MG17 and the Browning .303. The default was slower, maybe 15 or so. Also tweaking the strength of the effects to get the levels I want (less machine gun, much more cannon shake). -- The other program was a force feedback test program where it tells you what effects your device has and you can try out different things.

My findings point to that the old force feedback API simply does not try to enforce a tight center on the devices, allowing some slop/play. The spring.ffe file in IL-2 controls how much it should be centered, the deadzone and other things, and it's already set to the minimum allowed. I got the same results trying to force the stick to center in the other program as well. However, the stick sometimes, when switching programs, alt tabbing, or putting self-centering to maximum, is able to center much more tightly. Maybe about half the diameter of 'slop' compared to IL-2 (approximately 1.5x1.5cm or a bit more, compared to IL-2 and the force feedback programs maybe 5x5cm). And the stick can do this at any point/angle. As if there is no mechanical center it has to deal with.

This bodes very well for future improved force feedback API/implementation, as there is nothing to stop the stick from, for example, having it's force center forward or backward of center, if the plane is trimmed a certain way/speed etc. And when trying to fight those forces to keep the plane level, the force should lighten and eventually go away as we trim the elevator - just like real life.

For fun, I put a sock over my stick, as it triggered the sensor that checks if it's being gripped. And then I could remote control it with the testing programs. That's some awesome show I tell you - it moves instantaneously to the position indicated (moving sliders in a window with one's mouse) without a hiccup. Pretty advanced accurate stuff.

-- More findings. I figured out more specifically how the force feedback screen works in the games tab for the stick (control panel > Controllers etc).

The first slider, Overall Force or what it is called, is the only one that controls stuff like vibrations, including gun shake, buffeting, getting hit, bomb release and so on. Important to note that is also acts as the ultimate multiplier of the other two sliders as well, spring and damping. It's the head honcho slider. If set very low, it doesn't matter what you set spring and damping to, the stick will be lifeless. And if set over 100% just the same, it will also make spring and damper stronger. Something to keep in mind when tweaking.

The second one, spring, is pulling/centering forces, that get stronger the further you move the stick from where it wants to be. In IL-2, this affects how strongly it will resist movement as the plane travels faster (more air resistance on control surfaces).

The third one, damper, is in force feedback a simple effect that is just 'resistance to movement', with no necessary center. Imagine that the cables/wires in the control column leading to the wing surfaces has friction no matter what speed you are traveling, then this 'damper' effect would simulate the resistance that this friction is giving. (When checking out that test program and reading about effects, I saw that the stick also supports 'friction' and several other neat sounding effects that I got to try out. Friction was a variation of damper but slightly different. Doesn't seem to be used in IL-2 and the force feedback editor (which is from 1999) doesn't even support that effect. Either way, I have not ever found proof that 'damper' as an effect does anything in IL-2. There's no resistance what so ever when flying up into the air and going below 120km/h no matter what damper is set to.

Lastly there's the self-centering force. It adds the equivalent of a mechanical spring that only wants it to center all the time, without exception, and it adds to the effects that are already taking place. It does not work well in any form with IL-2 and I don't recommend trying to.

From having tinkered around, I find that the following setup is ideal for me, at least.

Overall Force: 112%. This adds much more sting to the general effects like MG, Cannon, bomb, buffeting/turbulence and such things, without being overbearing or very loud. For some reason there's a HUGE difference between the default 100% (very, very anemic) and even 112%.

Spring: 90%. I tried setting to 150% and thereabouts to get a more 'real' feeling, but two bad things happen instead - Firstly, it's even harder to feel how fast one is going based on airspeed, because the airspeed effect seems to go from no resistance around 120-140km/h, to full force by about 300km/h+. With increased spring tension, it feels like this threshold is even narrower, with it being 'very tense' by something like 200-260, making the whole range smaller. Even going relatively slow at 250 gives the impression of being much faster. Secondly, the point of travel when stick goes from 'slop' to force feedback effects is even more pronounced when the forces are stronger, and it feels even more unnatural - to 'break' into this force one has to pull somewhat hard, and it makes it suddenly 'jump' too far as one puts enough force to make it start moving past this point (often all the way to the edge of travel). With spring at 100% it's more progressive and the range when it goes from loose to firm (that sounds naughty) seems larger and more useful, and the 'end' result, max force, is about the same anyway. In my case, I set it to about 90%, because it's multiplied by the 112% of the overall force slider above to be about 100%.

Damper: I leave it at 90% like spring, not being able to tell any difference. Can't hurt.

And no self-centering, of course.

---

More setup tips for pedals and throttle:

The rudder pedals did not work well when being wound too tight. No matter what, they never give a satisfyingly firm resistance of the hydrualic/cable connected kind, so one must just accept that they are a bit toy-like light. If one doesn't add too much friction, the self-centering force can at least help it return to center so you don't fly all messed up. The ideal spot for this appears to be to first wind it up so much that it does not return to center by itself, when nothing is touching it, after being moved. Then to unwind it until it starts to self center, then unwind it a little bit more beyond that point. More than that and it becomes difficult to fly due to lacking self-centering.

The throttle can be tightened until your fingers almost bleed, and it does give some decent resistance, but the travel isn't as smooth. Mine is set as tight as I could possibly muster and it has a slightly artificial strange feel that I do not like, and I will be unwinding this as well until the movement is smooth, but it has enough resistance NOT to move by resting the hand on it in any reasonable way.

The throttle should be mounted on your left side and low, low, low. I pulled out a lower desk drawer and put some stuff there, and then put the throttle on that to get a decently low height. Any higher and the lower arm will brush against the buttons on the base easily (leading to oops moments) and it's not comfortable to try to reach upwards and hang on to that thing all the time.

The thumb trigger (red fire button) on the stick cannot be reached when the stick is pulled back if the angle of the elbow is too high. I had some luck in being able to put the stick close to my right thigh side in my reclined TV/Makeshiftpilot seat/chair, where it's just about optimal.

EDIT 33: Keep in mind that alt tabbing in IL-2 at any point will mess up the force feedback. Usually some kind of default self-centering is imposed that doesn't go away on it's own. The only way to fix this is to end the flight and "refly", which resets the force feedback. This can be used to alt tab and mess with the force feedback sliders outside the game for example.

[Chivas]

Quote: Chivas
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
If your used to hitting your target quickly I would avoid the G940 at-least until new drivers come out. The constant changes in force around the center and thru the x and y axis make targeting more difficult than it should be.
If your like most people and can't hit what your shooting at anyway, the G940 is a nice overall system. Actually you can hit your target with the G940, but it takes a few seconds longer than with a more constant pressure stick...just long enough for his wingman to get in position to shoot you down.


Quote: MikkOwl------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The vibration effects of the weapons firing is adjustable, though even at high settings I dont think it interferes with the accuracy. When taking unloaded shots (correctly trimmed, don't need to apply force to the stick) it is as easy as any other high end stick these days I would gamble. But definitely, when pulling G's + being untripped and experiencing buffeting, it is more difficult to hit. Part of it is the immersion, I think. It's more apparently stressful and urgent what kind of stresses you are putting on your plane with the feedback you are getting. More tense moment one might say.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------



Again I'm not talking force feedback motor effects. The electric motors are also used to provide stick centering. The G940 centering motors don't cut in for some degrees of movement around the center. The stick is very floppy around the center until the motors cut in to provide resistance at what ever level you set. The stick is still very precise as there is no movement deadzone, just a return to center force deadzone that is far too large.

[MikkOwl]

not [..] force feedback motor effects. The electric motors are also used to provide stick centering. The G940 centering motors don't cut in for some degrees of movement around the center. The stick is very floppy around the center until the motors cut in to provide resistance at what ever level you set. The stick is still very precise as there is no movement deadzone, just a return to center force deadzone that is far too large.
It is correct that the zone is too large in the current/old games. I posted some of my experiments measuring the differences in the zones depending on settings in the previous post. In IL-2 (and some ancient test programs) the zone is maybe 5x5 cm or so and certainly feels unnaturally large. But the stick seems to be able to provide a center more similar to maybe 2x2cm, and at any angle. It's just that this ability is not used by IL-2 or even the force feedback test programs using the old Force feedback API.

For unloaded steady shots, this force zone does not matter. While maneuvering however, it is harder than otherwise. Especially that it comes on so suddenly after a relatively large force free area.

[ruxtmp]

MIkkOwl
Do you have large jumps of throttle percent in IL2 when using the throttle? I cannot seem to get any better than 3-4% resolution. Basically moving the throttle changes the IL2 throttle in 3-4% increments. It is worse (+/- 8%) when going from one direction to another (ie low to high).

I am very close to returning the unit as it is not very sensitive in any axis with the throttle being the worst. My unmodded Cougar had better resolution and repeatability than the G940. I am hoping it is a driver issue but reading some forums it appears that the actual hardware may be the cause, I leave that to Logitech. For now I have reverted back to my X52 while I wait for info on returning the unit for a refund or exchanging it if it is truely faulty.

[MikkOwl]

Regarding the throttle accuracy in IL-2:
I'm not sure it jumps 4% when only going in one direction. I will make note of this within a few hours when I launch it again. Actually screw that, I'll go check right now :) (edit confi.ini, change nohudlog=1 to 0. Test test. Check DxTweak2 for some more hardcore numbers).

Findings:

IL-2's full range of possible throttle positions is 0% to 120% - 120 or 121 steps.

The G940 potentiometers, when calibrated, has an output that allows for 130 to 150 different positions. There's a few millimeters between each 'position', and one must move extremely slow and careful to move it that little.

In game, the throttle setting (in numbers on the hud) as well as the physical throttle stick rendered in 3D, moved in 2% increments. every 5th or 8th step or something like that was a 1% increment.

Other axises, like the R1 and R2 on the throttle, has a wider number of possible positions. The Saitek Quadrant levers have 256 possible positions, and they track accurately in DxTweak2. Testing the most accurate of them, the Saitek Quadrant levers, showed that it would still frequently move in 2% steps, but that 1% steps occured more frequently.

Binding the stick itself, with sensitivity to the lowest (Meaning that big movement produces the least output), and moving it near the center, was the only way to get IL-2 to reliably move in 1% increments.

My conclusion is that there is something wonky about the way IL-2 reads the axis positions. IL-2 has a max of 121 positions and yet when it reads an axis with 256 positions (more than two per 'position') it does not translate accurately. The G940 throttle axises, with 130-150 positions, is more than one throttle position for each of the 121 possible throttle positions in IL-2.

----------

The reversing direction bug makes it jump 4% of the throttle in IL-2 for the G940. As I mentioned before, I saw that LogitechMark stated that the Logitech/Wingman team knew about this bug (firmware I think) and they are working to fix it in the next software update.

----------

For myself, 2% motion of IL-2 throttle is how it has always been like no matter the hardware (more or less). I turn off the unimmersive HUD log so I don't see those numbers when flying. Instead I look at the throttle position in the cockpit (it sometimes has markings indicating what use a position has), and I read the instruments. Speed, RPM, prop pitch settings.

As you mention getting double the size of the 'steps' in IL-2, I recommend calibrating the throttle unit, then checking out the readings from DxTweak2. Check the "RAW" readings in the lowest and the highest positions of the throttle, and then subtract the lower reading from the higher. The number you get is the number of positions each throttle axis can be registered as being in. Compare that to the numbers I posted above.

[ruxtmp]

MikkOwl
I have only been ever able to get 0-110% range in the HUD in IL2. After recalibrating the throttle numerous times I can get the unit to increment in 2% jumps in one direction most of the time. Every now and then it will bounce 3-4%. Changing directions is still anywhere from 5-10%.

My new problem is with programming key presses to the buttons. I tried to assign keys to the throttle and stick to center Naturalpoint (TRACKIR) and some push to talk keys for Teamspeak. No matter what I do keycommands outside of the IL2 program do not respond. Pressing the assigned key on my keyboard executes the command so I know it is not the two programs.

[RCAF_FB_Orville]

Hi MikkOwl, I'd just like to say congrats on a thorough and concise write up of the G940 which I have owned for a few weeks now, and I am in almost complete agreement with your assessment.....to which you had obviously given a lot of thought. Bravo :)

I'll confess I disliked it initially but it has 'grown' on me and I am now very happy with it! Interestingly my settings were very similar to yours, but tweaking is ongoing depending on game. Thank you also for the explanations RE: dampening etc (which really should be provided by Logitech anyway, a fact I noted in my feedback report to them).

Again, excellent work :) I took the small liberty of posting a link here http://simhq.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/topics/2913942/3.html to your musings on the Simhq forum (not sure if you are a member?) as it is very informative and well written (I'm 'Biggles07' over there) Hope you don't mind, but I would think not lol.
(PS I may well pick your brains at a later date regarding SDK tailoring of forces if you don't mind, as you seem to be clued up in this area :)).

Thanks again! :)

[335th_GRSwaty]

ruxtmp

Teamspeak and track ir (center & on/off) works only in game.

[13th Hsqn Protos]

My new problem is with programming key presses to the buttons. I tried to assign keys to the throttle and stick to center Naturalpoint (TRACKIR) and some push to talk keys for Teamspeak. No matter what I do keycommands outside of the IL2 program do not respond. Pressing the assigned key on my keyboard executes the command so I know it is not the two programs.

If you want the TS key to work it is best to make the profile persistent. That worked for me - and it works ingame or out.

Fkeys don't seem to work in the current software version. Try making it another key for Track Ir.

[Chivas]

F keys worked for me....I used the F11 for teamspeak, and F12 for Track IR centering

[MikkOwl]

And thus spoke ruxtmp:
After recalibrating the throttle numerous times I can get the unit to increment in 2% jumps in one direction most of the time. Every now and then it will bounce 3-4%. Changing directions is still anywhere from 5-10%.
Exactly as for me then. Did you note though that my trials with other devices had a very similar result (except the reversal jump bug)? IL-2 seems to be to blame for outright lax reading of the axis positions. Possibly some old DirectX Input issue, I don't know.

I tried to assign keys to the throttle and stick to center Naturalpoint (TRACKIR) and some push to talk keys for Teamspeak. No matter what I do keycommands outside of the IL2 program do not respond. Pressing the assigned key on my keyboard executes the command so I know it is not the two programs.
Mine work everywhere - but I did set my Logitech Profiler to "apply persistant profile". If one has the auto-detect game settings it will not apply that profile when the game isn't in focus, I imagine.

Speaking of IL2 with G940 and TrackIr5 - I keep trying to optimize the way the view controls are set up. Current revision is programmed to make use of the mid-stick thumb button "S4" - clicking it toggles between wide fov and 'realisticformymonitorsize' fov, while holding it sets maximum zoom and the precision mode in TiR5 - until released, when it reverts to whatever fov mode it was in before. Seems to work fairly well. The lower castle hat on the stick (push right) is TiR center. I found that it's very easy to push the hat to the right from the left with the thumb (coming from the red thumb "FIRE" button), not having to place the thumb inside the hat. Pinky button for radio transmit (just like the real world Fw 190, yum!). One of the backside throttle buttons toggles between gunsight position and 6DoF position. Comes in handy for certain messed up models. And all this of course with autohotkey. I'll mention more about it at the end of the post.

RCAF_FB_Orville wroteth:
Hi MikkOwl, I'd just like to say congrats on a thorough and concise write up of the G940 which I have owned for a few weeks now, and I am in almost complete agreement with your assessment.....to which you had obviously given a lot of thought. Bravo

I'll confess I disliked it initially but it has 'grown' on me and I am now very happy with it! Interestingly my settings were very similar to yours, but tweaking is ongoing depending on game. Thank you also for the explanations RE: dampening etc (which really should be provided by Logitech anyway, a fact I noted in my feedback report to them).

Again, excellent work I took the small liberty of posting a link here http://simhq.com/forum/ubbthreads.ph...2913942/3.html to your musings on the Simhq forum (not sure if you are a member?) as it is very informative and well written (I'm 'Biggles07' over there) Hope you don't mind, but I would think not lol.
(PS I may well pick your brains at a later date regarding SDK tailoring of forces if you don't mind, as you seem to be clued up in this area ).

Thanks again!
Jolly good I say! I knew about much of what you just told me already, by finding the post you made in the RoF thread about changing your mind about the G940 and linking to my posts here, and this was several days ago. I read more on SimHQ after that and I signed up yesterday, in no small part due to finding your post through google. I am going to look up that link after I finish posting this. EDIT: That's the one post I found several days ago :)

Logitech did have some explanations for what the force feedback settings are, but I recall that none satisfyingly explained it until I dug around deeper, especially with some force feedback testing programs + a few manuals for coders of devices (one was for some FF for handicapped people article). I think one of the more important things is finding out by experimentation how spring forces work in IL-2 - that the range utilized is limited to about 130km/h (no resistance) to 300km/h (max resistance). Hopefully Storm of War will have a much larger range and tons of other improvements.

Happy to share my findings with others. I get pleasure from helping (so it's a selfish motivation when it comes down to it. Though that's why we do just about everything we do). :)

SDK tailoring of forces though? Are you talking about the .ffe files in the IL2 force feedback folder? There wasn't that much to change there to be honest, mainly just tweaking the RPM and more importantly, power, of the gun effects seperately from all the others. Could be useful though. If I remember correctly you rely more on FF due to having impaired hearing? If so tweaking it right would have more significance than for the average user. I have the opposite problem, hypersensitive hearing (not that I have better hearing than others, I just experience things as louder and distressful). Use a lot of earplugs, sealed headphones and even got hearing protectors that I often wear just to shut up the neighbors and traffic.

----

Throttle LED tips:

If you look in your logitech profiler folder, there's a LedSDK app that can be run. You can move this executable anywhere convenient. When run, it allows you to set the colors you want for each button. As far as I can tell, the throttle permanently remembers the settings until you open the program and change them again at some later point. It helps to categorize the functions a bit by how critical they are or what systems are affected. My "Master Arm" button is red, for example. Engine ignition 1 and 2 are red also.

When you feel like making things dark for sleep or whatever, you can go into the game controllers in the control panel, open up the throttle device, and click 'advanced' or whatever it is. There you will find a master light switch that turn off all the lights. Repeat to turn them on again (they'll resume the colors you programmed earlier). I hope Storm of War will have LED light support directly.

-----------------

Autohotkey stuff:

I think people out there still need convincing, so here are a few examples. It is awesome for the G940 (and anything else for that matter).

Example 1: having a "Master Arm" switch (G940 shipped with such a cutout paper thingy that I put under one of the throttle buttons):

The script is set up along these lines:
If the masterarm button is pressed, then toggle 'safety off' or 'safety on' inside the script.
Bind the weapon 1, 2, 3 and 4 to numpad 1 2 3 4.
When script senses that a stick button is pressed, it looks if safety is on or off, and if it's off, it pushes the numpad key to fire weapon 1, etc. If it's on, nothing happens.

It's very basic yet functional and useful. I've had 'accidents' happen, mostly inadvertant firing of a cannon or MG; but also heavier stuff. Ever drop a bomb during take off? Ooops.

-----

Bailing out realism:

Make you stay in cockpit view when initiating the bailing out sequence, and even play a sound file that has the sound of seatbelts being detached, windscreen being jettisoned and louuud wind noise.

It just checks if your bail-out button (a stick button perhaps?) is pushed. If it is, it sends "F1" right away to bring you instantly back to cockpit view, and also starts playing the sound file specified. I made one of my own and it works quite nicely, fitting what is seen.

-----

No more mouse map crap:

Instead of having to use the mouse (letting go of the G940 stick tends to not have good effects) and click the right mouse button continously inside the map window to go through all the zoom levels (what a pest), and using left click and drag to move the map, have one zoom in button, one zoom out button, and use a hat to scroll around on the map. No mouse involved at all.

This one was very tricky to cook up. Mouse coordinates is nearly completely unsupported in IL2, and figuring out how to cause two buttons to send the right amount of rightmouseclicks to either zoom one step in or out depending on the button pressed, but it works :). I don't think I can explain it in a short enough text, and in a useful way here.

----

Make buttons make sounds when pressed (as well as released):

Super easy. Just tell the script to play a soundfile of our choice when a certain button is pressed (and another when released if one so wishes). Turning off the HUDLOG means there's no indicators when WEP is on, when fuel tank is jettisoned, navlights are triggered, engine key bla bla. There's usually not a single sound effect from inside the game to let you know that you did something. Adding a sound effect makes you hear that you did indeed press the button. In my case, I've made it keep track of if wep is on or off, if the safety is on or off, and it plays a different sound file to let me know that WEP Is turned ON for example. In both cases I used a little alarm buzz of the same kind that the Bf 109 uses (sort of) when deplying flaps without the gear down. Knowing that WEP is on or off or the master arm switch, not to mention the rather critical tail wheel lock function, is important, and this is one way to deal with it when getting rid of the HUD Log.

----

Any kind of view controls one can imagine:

I have mentioned it before. Tell it to send the max zoom + smooth headtracking button when a certain button is pressed, then upon release, send max fov or medium, or anything one wants. Can cycle through things, make things activate when held longer than a certain time, two buttons held together, there's no limit.

----

Radio commands through single key:

Can do this with the Logitech Profiler as well. Just look up what keys need be pushed in what order to send a certain command. Tab + 7 = "help me anyone!". Tab + 8 + 2 = request vector to home base. And so it goes.

I have one such similar macro set up to toggle that 'zoom when moving forward with TrackIR' off, as I prefer to do my zooming with keys instead. It requires pushing a numpad * key and then numpad 1 together.

Other small things is having right + left mouse button = Escape. Right mouse + scroll wheel up/down is alt-tab (no need to reach for the keyboard anymore).

Another useful thing is binding the Trim 3 knob to volume control. Yes, instant volume 'trim', accurately and easily. In this one tells autohotkey to scan the trim3 axis and then to convert the position of it onto the system volume setting something like 10 times a second.

[Flanker35M]

S!

Very thorough review there and good points Mikko. Still have to say FF is not for me as it should simulate only the flying effects. None of the WW2 vets, pilots of course, mentioned their control stick shaking like crazy when firing. The effect they felt was slight thump or vibration in airframe, but stick did not jerk around. So in this way IL2 modelling gun firing thus making gun solution harder than it was = unrelalistic.

I used CH ForceFX stick years ago in IL-2 and have tested MSFF etc as well. Still I consider my Cougar better than any of them, being only lightly modded with lighter springs. Therefore waiting more for the TM Warthog stick having hall-sensors etc. already without need of modding them in.

Anyways the G940 seems to be decently good for anyone wanting a FF stick and maybe new sims will use it's features better as you described. TY for the review, was top class.

[MikkOwl]

Thank you for the praise, glad it was so informative.

The gun firing fibration/etc can be set to whatever level one prefers. The default in IL-2 is very subtle, and after hearing more about it (another sim veteran commented on it last night on a server) I'm personally going to tweak down that particular effect, which I had raised overall.

It can be set both by the basic G940 force setup page - it is covered under the general effects slider. And also by either removing all together, or editing the "machinegun.ffe" and "cannon.ffe" files in the forcefeedback folder, using the directX force editor.

This is beneficial for me as, those effects are by far the 'noisiest' and I prefer to keep a low profile as far as my environment goes. :D

[Qpassa]

I have it and its very nice.
I think that when it loose Feedback is because i have not execute the Logitech Profiler.


There are some things that have to be corrected ,you have said it before

[MikkOwl]

In IL-2 (winXP 32bit), if I alt-tab out of the game and come back, the spring (wind resistance) forces disappear, and initially a very tightly centering force (which feels awesome and how it should be like) appears in it's place - but this also disappears with a bit of stick pull (often suddenly all resistance disappears).

To get the force feedback working again is a matter of restarting the flight. I.e. "Refly".

[MikkOwl]

I've managed to program autohotkey to support two axis as individual throttles! Took a very long, intense night trying to figure out how to do it and make it behave properly (it is so much more difficult than it sounds like). Basically it checks two axises of our choice, then when presses the appropriate keybinds (first selecting which engine - 1, 2 or both), then a power input. Like 0%, 10%, 20% etc.

But as maybe others have tried in the past, being annoyed with having just 11 positions (10% increments), I managed to make it sneak in an extra "increase power" button click, which raises and lowers the throttle setting by 5%, enabling a scale of 0-110% in 5% increments through any analogue axis (a total of 23 positions). That's not far off from the analogue typical of 2%.

I tried it with my Saitek Quadrant (3 levers) and it worked perfectly there too. So far it supports two throttles axises. There's no reason 4 shouldn't work, just need a bit of work to add the extra code.

I could not wait for Team Daidalos 4.10 patch (which may or may not bring dual throttle support). The twin engined heavy fighters were calling my name. More..engines..to..play...with...

Anyway, is there any interest in this? I could clean it up a bit and upload it, even as an .exe file that needs nothing else.

[robtek]

Please do so mikkowl, i, i.e., would really appreciate it.

[Schallmoser]

Hi MikkOwl and everybody else,

That's a great thread, thanks for all the info!!!

However i've got a question, where did you find that LedSDK application?
I've looked in the out of the box CD for my G940 and the update that I downloaded from Logitech, but I don's see it anywhere.

Could you please give me a hint?

thanks in advance

cheers
Schallmoser

BTW: I'd be interested in dual throttle control as well!!!! :grin:

[Qpassa]

Hi MikkOwl and everybody else,

That's a great thread, thanks for all the info!!!

However i've got a question, where did you find that LedSDK application?
I've looked in the out of the box CD for my G940 and the update that I downloaded from Logitech, but I don's see it anywhere.

Could you please give me a hint?

thanks in advance

cheers
Schallmoser

BTW: I'd be interested in dual throttle control as well!!!! :grin:
C:\Program Files\Logitech\Gaming Software

Logitech_SDK_For_PC_1.00.002.ZIP

Into the zip
/joystick

unzip the directory.
run JoystickSDKDemo.exe ;)

[Schallmoser]

Thanks Qpassa! I missed the zip file somehow...
getting old and blind these days...;)

cheers
Schallmoser

[Qpassa]

Thanks Qpassa! I missed the zip file somehow...
getting old and blind these days...;)

cheers
Schallmoser
No problem:
I have uploaded it :grin:
http://qpassa.site90.net/Joystick.rar

[MikkOwl]

I cleaned things up and put together a bunch of goodies for use, especially with the G940, and IL-2.

EDIT: VERSION 2.0 Finished and released. Link updated. See post further down the page.
http://hem.bredband.net/mikko.artist/Multi-Throttle_for_IL2_by_MikkOwl.rar

Enjoy!

You can check out each thing in the goodie pack, but the main two things you'll want to run is the Dual Throttle support and the individual engine program.

The dual throttle does what you think it does (through keyboard emulation). The individual button one makes the four left-most buttons on the G940 throttle do individual engine control. The upper ones (P1 and P2) start/stop the left and right engine individually. The lower ones (P5 and P6) feathers the left and right propeller respectively.

Up to the sky with your twin engines! Bf 110, P38 and Me 262 wheee! (not bad with some Junkers 88, B-25, Bleinheim, Ac-20, Pe-2 and Pe-3 either). :D

---

Although I forgot to mention in the included readmes, it feels and looks much nicer when flying if you go into your conf.ini file and change "NoHudLog=0" to "NoHudLog=1". That removes all the 'engine 2 selected" "power 35%" that keeps spamming your screen otherwise.

[Schallmoser]

Thanks again Qpassa!

Hi MikkOwl

That's really great what you have done there!!!
Thank you very much for all that work!!!

I can't wait to try that this evening...:grin:

best wishes
Schallmoser

[Qpassa]

Ill check this afternoon (7 hours left)
I am a bomber pilot so dual throttle will be awesome :3.
Is there some way to keep colours of the buttons of the throttle? I hate the green... :D
Thanks evil owl ;)

[MikkOwl]

It should all work well, assuming you bind the keys exactly like instructed in the game (the throttle program keeps pressing 'select engine 1' 'select all engines' 'select engine 2' and then 'set power 50' and maybe an extra 'increase power') whenever the throttles are moved. If these keys being pressed are not bound to the right function in the game, annoying and puzzling results would no doubt ensue :)

To set the power to 110%, the program has to send first the engine selection, then power 100%, then two presses of "increase power" (first one gets it to 105%, the second to 110%). Strangely it works flawlessly. What an odd way of having to play around to get stuff working right. Luckily IL-2 accepts keypresses at lightspeed so it's possible to send a whole string of presses in a few milliseconds time, to get ultra-fast response.

--------

As for the color changing, do you mean to keep the new assignments after a computer restart? I haven't really checked but I got the impressions mine did remember (but I rarely restart due to computer sometimes not booting quite right). Either way, put that little color-changing program with the rest of the extra stuff you use (maybe the dual throttle program etc). That way you can go in and change all the colors in like 20 seconds whenever you need to.

Darnit, I forgot to include my 'make the Trim 3 knob control the sound volume'. I'll put it up later if anyone would want that. It's a knob, easy to reach, so having that to change volume fast is very convenient for me.

[MikkOwl]

Version 2.0 finished, a major improvement of the 1.0 I posted this morning.

http://hem.bredband.net/mikko.artist/Multi-Throttle_for_IL2_by_MikkOwl.rar

It does not contain the extra goodies, but we'll get to those later. I focused on making this as good as possible and as easy to understand as possible instead.

It is now a fully fledged multi throttle program for IL-2, supporting all device axises you may have connected. You can have up to four axises, one for each engine on a B-17 for example. Or you can use a dual throttle to control the engine pairs on the left and right side, makes it much more fun and intuitive to turn them while taxiing on the runway, and when flying.

More features coming in version 3.0. Individual buttons for turning each engine on and off, and feathering each engine propeller, as well as toggling magnetos individually for each engine.

[kimosabi]

Thanks Mikkowl but more than two engines are for sissies. Besides, my four leftmost buttons are occupied, I don't think I can re-learn them. ;)

[MikkOwl]

You don't have to use any buttons for anything :) Neither of the versions (2.0 is the one to have) have anything to do with turning the engines on/off and feathering. All they do is let you use several throttle axis (like the G940 twin throttle, or a CH/Saitek quadrant) bound to control 2-4 engines individually in the game itself. Without it, you're limited to a single axis and can't use the others to control more than one engine.

[Stanger]

Ill check this afternoon (7 hours left)
I am a bomber pilot so dual throttle will be awesome :3.
Is there some way to keep colours of the buttons of the throttle? I hate the green... :D
Thanks evil owl ;)

My colors stay changed after a restart. Maybe the not sticking after a restart is a admin account security thing.

Mikkowl thanks for your hard work in getting more joy out of this stick.
You mentioned a directx force editor. Where can I get this? I tried removing the guns force file in game but the guns still shake. I am using the Hellcat for testing.

[MikkOwl]

The Microsoft "Force Editor" can be found in the downloadable link at the bottom of this page (the 'sin' one)
http://www.vourtsis.com/sindarin/DLLS/index.html

As for the hellcat, any force feedback regarding it's 12.7mm machine guns should disappear if you remove or rename the 'autocannon.ffe' and 'machinegun.ffe'. A nicer alternative is of course to edit the files instead to lower the effect a bit. The real planes back then did shake when firing, and the larger the caliber and the more the guns, with a lighter airframe, the worse it was.

However, this was more through the seat and your ass than the stick, which being mounted on a gimbal, can only transmit vertical forces (the 'up-down' motion of the vibration). I doubt it affected gunnery very much in either case, so setting it so it is not very intrusive is probably the right setting, unless limiting sound is the goal.

PS: I am building a 1:48 scale model injection kit Hellcat F6F-3. It's on my desk. Had a tragic build accident though where something fell on it while on it's landing gear, snapping both into pieces. I will try to improvise a repair somehow, despite a piece even going missing. It's my first 'real' attempt at a build since i was 11 years old or so. Bought tons of modeling tools and material. Bf 110E, Fw 190 A-8 and a F-4 Phantom II "Jolly Rogers" (Navy), all in the same scale.

[Stanger]

Wow thanks for the quick reply. I see you like to tinker with things. So do I. I have a lot of spare time on my hands. The group I fly with is AG-51. We are a Pacific carier operations with 20 active members. We even meet once a year for a tailhook lan party.

I see you are a moddeler. We have one fellow on our squad I think he does it full time. lol. Post a pic when you are done with that Hellcay if you like. Love to see it. My fav plane is the P-51.

O yea I think my shaking is mostly from the plane shaking from the guns firing. It is like a double effect. I want the shake becuase I want to feel the edge of a stall. I noticed how wing mounted guns shake a lot more than nose guns in which it should. When you take shake out it will shake just a little bit when you use guns. Put shake back in and when you use guns it is a lot worse. Seems like a multiplier thing going on.

If you need some one to help with the tinkering or a tester with this project on the g940 let me know.

Thanks again.

[ECV56_Guevara]

I got a 940 since about a month. I got an issue whit the FF: The FF disengages sometimes an re engage a few minuts later later. Any clue? thanks in advance

[MikkOwl]

Good news everyone - managed to make autohotkey (the program I use) to control the leds on the G940 throttle. So far it's not connected to the game however and so I can only control stupid things and assumptions like "press landing gear button = turn it yellow. wait 5 seconds then red" or "arm cannon = turn it red" and other things. Could get 'out of sync' compared to what is really going on in the game but would be better than nothing.

Working on getting info from game through devicelink to make the game info be able to affect the lights. Difficult...

I did manage to get my G940 throttle to control throttle in game using devicelink as well, but not two engines yet. WOrk work work :)

[TheGrunch]

I did manage to get my G940 throttle to control throttle in game using devicelink as well, but not two engines yet. WOrk work work :)
DeviceLink is definitely the way to go, MikkOwl, thanks for the heads-up on Autohotkey, though, I've been using it since you mentioned it.

[Stanger]

Good news everyone - managed to make autohotkey (the program I use) to control the leds on the G940 throttle. So far it's not connected to the game however and so I can only control stupid things and assumptions like "press landing gear button = turn it yellow. wait 5 seconds then red" or "arm cannon = turn it red" and other things. Could get 'out of sync' compared to what is really going on in the game but would be better than nothing.

Working on getting info from game through devicelink to make the game info be able to affect the lights. Difficult...

I did manage to get my G940 throttle to control throttle in game using devicelink as well, but not two engines yet. WOrk work work :)


Thanks for your hard work, care to share that hotkey mod to control the lights. :-)

[JG301_HaJa]

Great work. It's people like you that drive this great hobby of ours to new heights and joy.

Keep it up but don't overwork yourself :) I imagine you have a life outside in RL aswell..

//
Håkan

And this must be a sign of old age since I forgot posting a similar comment in the other thread you made LOL.....

[MikkOwl]

Some progress on pulling information from devicelink (IL-2 thus) and getting it to autohotkey, but it is damned difficult. I can't get it to talk directly to autohotkey, working on solving that.

At the moment the current setup is making use of the following:

"G940Leds110" - A program made by another hobbyist for making leds work with the Ka-50 black shark simulator. Part of it is an executable he made (I suppose) that listens on a UDP port for commands sent there, and then changes the lights when recieving valid commands.

"GUI NetCat" - a little program that allows connecting to the left and right using TCP and UDP.

"AutoHotKey" - The scripting program I've been using up to this point. It's like c++ but with a focus on interface things and controllers.

"IL-2 Device Link" - the part of the game that can listen and send UDP packets with information.

I set one instance of NetCat to connect a path to IL-2's device link. And this NetCat is partially connected through 'piping' with one instance of AutoHotKey that is set up to send the 'right' commands to IL-2. This is the way to send throttle inputs and all that stuff.

Another instance of NetCat is set up connected to the G940 led program by the other amazing fellow, and it too is 'piped' to another AutoHotKey script, which is set up to send the right LED color commands at the right time.

I can get the first NetCat+Devicelink to output the 'answers' from IL-2's devicelink to a text file, but I have not gotten further than that. I need to get it into autohotkey so it can get info about the status of your instruments/plane in the game, and then pass the info along through this path into the G940 led changing program, changing the leds.

Skipping all the IL-2 related stuff, it is much easier to get the autohotkey programs to talk to the led changing program and making it change colors. I already set up some stuff for myself - I have three seperate buttons on the throttle base set up with the following names. "MG 17", "MG 151", "AUFRÜSTEN BOMBEN". They each control the arming/safety of these weapons (I fly the bf 110G2 mainly). When they are not armed, the lights are off. When armed, the button goes yellow. It's very neat.

I also made the landing gear button work somewhat. Labeled "FAHRWERK" (Such a Luftwaffe theme isn't it? haha). It just assumes that when you start you are on the ground with gear out, and the button is green. Clicking it makes it dark for about 6 seconds (and that's normally how long your gears take to rise in game), then it goes red. Much like the indicator in the luftwaffe plane cockpits.

Airbrake, tailwheel lock, instrument lights, prop pitch manual override - similar story.

It's better than nothing for sure. But I'd like to get the info straight from the game somehow... I don't know how to do it yet. I'm not a real programmer. When reading formum posts and instructions about all these things, it's like 90% gibberish.

A shitty thing is that the devicelink connection offers almost nothing and has similar limitations to using the keysending in the current multi throttle versions I made. It works in the same limited way, have to select engine 1, send new value. Select engine 2, send new axis position. Only real difference is that you can send the exact lever position instead of the closest 5% position, which is barely any gain. But you don't have to bind any keys, freeing up those keys to use with mods and other stuff. That was disappointing.

The G940 led controlling stuff is NOT user friendly or even customizable at this point, and I don't know how to make it that yet (everything would be 'hard coded', only be able to launch it and it will change lights the way I set them to beforehand, nothing you could change). I'll work on it a bit and see if I can make it customisable enough to be able to set stuff up a bit more to your liking. Believe me though, it goes a very long way to just 'guesstimate' what's going on with your systems as long as it 'starts' from the correct position (so they are synced). When you hit 'refly' you hit a reset button to reset all the lights/guesstimation assumptions. So even without device link, it's still highly useful.

[Matze81]

My question is not Il-2 related, but I would like to know, whether the throttles of the G940 have an afterburner detent?

[MikkOwl]

My question is not Il-2 related, but I would like to know, whether the throttles of the G940 have an afterburner detent?
The big post by myself on page 2 covers this. Go there and search for 'detent'.

[Matze81]

The big post by myself on page 2 covers this. Go there and search for 'detent'.

Thank you!

[MikkOwl]

http://forum.1cpublishing.eu/showthread.php?t=12668

Version 3.0 of my multi-throttle software for IL-2 is done. It adds a lot of functionality to the G940. Now using device link to get 100% accurate throttles like normal in IL-2, and also support for the toe brakes for individual wheel braking.

[MikkOwl]

I made a program to let you control your G940 lights manually (on a basic level at least).

http://hem.bredband.net/mikko.artist/G940_manual_lights_controller_1.0_by_MikkOwl.zip

Enjoy!

[MikkOwl]

An update on the G940 as flight sim equipment:

I finally went about trying to tune my trims to let me really 'trim' properly and accurately, since I always had a bit of an issue except with the elevator. I lowered the range of them in the profiler a lot to make them far easier and casual to use.

And I found that I had real issues trimming it in so that I could fly completely hands off stick. And the reason: the reversal bug. Every time you start moving a trim in the 'other' direciton it makes a jump, so when trying to trim it just right - ah, a bit too much, go back, wtf, too much, and so it keeps going.

DxTweak doesn't work with the G940 stick (crashes if you try to read it), but I took the time to use the IL-2 Joy utility to see if the stick itself is affected by the reversal bug, and it is. Every single axis is affected. This is outmost annoying. I'm sure it affects my aiming in some instances to a minor degree (but there should be NO degree), and it sure affects trying to trim properly, and the throttle accuracy as we already know.

That Logitech software update with new firmware to fix this nonsense bug really must come out - soon. Feels handicapped to have this issue plauging every axis, even if the effect is small.

[TheGrunch]

DxTweak doesn't work with the G940 stick (crashes if you try to read it), but I took the time to use the IL-2 Joy utility to see if the stick itself is affected by the reversal bug, and it is.
That sucks, can't believe they're taking so long to fix a rather show-stopping bug. Does DIView (http://www.leobodnar.com/products/BU0836/DIView.zip) work?
Getting pretty sick of peripheral manufacturers using weird proprietary calibration interfaces...they should've made the separate components of the G940 work independently, even if it meant they used up 3 USB ports...if you can afford to buy the G940 I'm pretty sure you can buy a powered hub. And the only other reason they provided for not doing so was that some older sims only recognise one controller...why didn't they just bundle their own variety of PPJoy with it?

[MikkOwl]

DI View does work, thanks! Never heard of it before. Cannot calibrate or change anything with it, but can at least check out the axis behaviours.

I realized I could implement a little correction filter in my multi-throttle software for the G940 at least (But only for what is controlled through device link - don't think it would work well to pipe everything through there). I have already fixed the throttle reversal bug there, and setting up the wheels now. At last, no more annoying throttle jumping too far or the trims being unagreeable in finding that perfect sweet spot.

EDIT: DIView cannot see the last axis of the G940 stick - the "X" axis of the 'mini joystick' (top hat). Neither can AutoHotKey. I think some of these windows APIs just can't recognize more axises. And perhaps this is a reason Logitech split up their devices - too many axises for one device.

Also I suspect this is the reason that DXTweak2 crashes - one too many axises.

The Ministick axis that does read though is very accurate, interesting. Although I can't think of a use for it (beyond using it as a digital trim hat in the sense that the F-16 Fighting Falcon is trimmed - aileron and elevator - wouldn't feel right (or would it?) for an old WW2 plane).

[TheGrunch]

I think you're right, I think the maximum is 8 axes per device in DirectInput. I'd probably use the ministick just as mouse panning because I don't really use my TrackIR3, not enough room on my desk to stick it in a useful position, it's too easy to go outside the tracking range.

[MikkOwl]

I thought I would update this topic as it is in the IL-2 forum, and it's about the G940: I have now managed to supply support for the G940 for IL-2

Reversal bug removal of most axes
Toe brake support
Dual throttle support
Throttle LED colour support (yep, if the gear is down it will light up green, tail wheel unlocked and it is red, WEP is on and it flashes red, arrestor hook down and.. so on).

See this post for details and download:
http://forum.1cpublishing.eu/showpost.php?p=147543&postcount=85

[Chivas]

Nice support MikkOwl.

I hear Logitech is still working on a driver update. If they fix the sloppy centering I'll give the G940 another go, and try your programming.

[MikkOwl]

Forwarding some news from the Logitech support forums, in my own words:



Logitech Profiler (the main drivers/software) was getting a major rewrite (6.0 - Don't remember) that has been worked on for a long time, since September we assume, 7 months. So long that the bugs of the G940 was really infuriating users, who were kept in the dark about any updates/bug fixes. Enough angry customers and probably to patch the damaged reputation of the G940 has made them divert resources for a minor (but major in importance) update, version 5.09.
5.09 is not far from release. Has seen limited distribution to software developers for last minute feedback.
Focus of release is bug fixes, but not entirely.
Profiler bug fixes are mentioned.
Unspecified functionality bugs to be fixed (probably the reversal bug which is pretty major, and was confirmed as being worked on to fix in December 2009).
Changes/work-arounds of force feedback implementation in third party games (that would be all games that has force feedback support I suppose?). Centering spring force is mentioned specifically. I believe it most likely to be the 'slop' issue in sims such as IL-2.
One type of BSOD eliminated.
New capabilities of the device will be unlocked.
More specifics coming within a week.

[Schallmoser]

Great news Mikk!

thanks for the news.

cheers
Schallmoser

[kimosabi]

That's good news Mikko. Maybe I'll even install the profiler again now. :D

[Qpassa]

im still waiting for the 5.09 lulz

[Qpassa]

One of the Moderators of Logitech Forums have said:
Please note that these forums are meant to be a Peer to Peer assistance forum. In other words, other people assist others with their experiences and knowledge of products. You will find some Support Representatives from time to time but they are not mandated to offer assistance.
Clap clap clap
http://forums.logitech.com/t5/PC-Gaming/It-s-now-April-Last-G940-Software-release-was-September-2009/td-p/443762

[Schallmoser]

Yeah, thats customer care!

"Well poor idiots, we allready got your 300€, so we don't care about you anymore"...:evil:

It is sad that a company gets away with such a behavior. I was really hoping for an update but this comment from a moderator just blew the illusion away.

:confused:

[touchdown42]

Just for the record, from the linked thread, second page:

Logi Product Team CharlesB Logi Product Team
Logi Product Team
Posts: 2,661

5.09 has passed WHQL, QA has given the 5.09 drivers a thumbs up, firmware update for G940 has been tested and is recoverable as to prevent bricking of the controller, installer RC has been written, and QA is testing the installer now. Actually, they had it as of last week. I'm just waiting for QA to approve the installer, and I'll post the link once it goes live on the FTP (Website update will go after it's posted on the FTP).



The software team included some gamepad improvements into 5.09 when given the chance, and the firmware updater has been improved. It's basically done and I'm just waiting for the QA team to finish the installer tests across all the languages we support.


regards

[Schallmoser]

Thanks for the hands up tuchdown!

but I prefer to wait before raising my hopes again... ;)

cheers
Schallmoser

[engadin]

Thanks for the hands up tuchdown!

but I prefer to wait before raising my hopes again... ;)

cheers
Schallmoser

+1 Really hope the wait is worth the nasty annoyances.

Waiting to jump from my beloved and about to pass away MS SW FFB2.

Engadin

[150GCT_Pag]

New software and firmware is out!

Check the logitech Gaming forum... ;)
http://forums.logitech.com/t5/PC-Gaming/Logitech-G940-Software-Update-Official-notice/td-p/447921

[Qpassa]

Dont fall the arms!
http://forums.logitech.com/t5/PC-Gaming/G940-Reversal-bug-Any-news/td-p/496274