if you could dogfight anyone in the past or present who would it be?

[haitch40]

me the red barron (forgot his real name) in ww2 planes see how he copes and then put both of us in f22 raptors and see how he does :D would be interesting

[bunkaboa]

me the red barron (forgot his real name) in ww2 planes see how he copes and then put both of us in f22 raptors and see how he does :D would be interesting


Red Barron : Manfred Von Richthofen

[FOZ_1983]

I would have to go up against a relative rookie to be honest.


Someone like adolf galland or sailor malan would simply wipe you out, it would be no challenge for them what so ever, so you probably wouldnt learn much. I'd like to fly the dogfight and see whats going on, perhaps learn from it.

[kozzm0]

Richthofen didn't dogfight unless he had the advantage. So if he didn't shoot you down quickly, he would just fly away.

Werner Voss might be more willing to fight you. He singlehandedly attacked a whole squadron of the best Allied aces, and did well but then was shot down and killed.

But I would test my skills against Hans-Joachim Marseilles. Marseilles shot down more Allied planes in ww2 than anyone, mainly because he developed an amazing ability to aim at high speed. He used to bring one wingman and attack defensive circles of Hurricanes. He would dive on them, and even when they were below the fuselage he would get the exact amount of lead and destroy the target at the first pass, then fly away. His wingman was mainly to cover him as he flew away.

There are higher-scoring aces than Marseilles, but their totals included lots of Soviet planes which were initially both inferior and badly outnumbered. Marseilles made no scores during the Battle of Britain, then finally figured out how to shoot and racked up over 150 in North Africa.

[haitch40]

a japanese ace would be nice to fight

[Wissam24]

This sounds like Fight Club. When they both ask each other who they would like to fight.


I wouldn't like to dogfight anyone. War is terrifying, I am not a pilot and the only people famous enough to be named and thus included would absolutely batter me if I was

[haitch40]

This sounds like Fight Club. When they both ask each other who they would like to fight.


I wouldn't like to dogfight anyone. War is terrifying, I am not a pilot and the only people famous enough to be named and thus included would absolutely batter me if I was

ok so your going in the navy then?

[Wissam24]

War isn't glamorous or fun. You shouldn't treat it as such.

[haitch40]

War isn't glamorous or fun. You shouldn't treat it as such.

supose not but then when your in battle and the addrenaline is going and you shoot this other guy knowing you will come back must feel good

[FOZ_1983]

If i could fly WITH anyone as a wingman then it would have to be -

Erich Hartmann

(bet you didnt expect me to say that ;) )

He claimed never to of had a wingman killed so flying with him would give me extra confidence knowing he was looking out for me as well as i was supposed to looking out for him. I'd be happy for him to get all the kills, it would be a great learning curve.

[gbtstr]

ok so your going in the navy then?

Navies have planes, too, slick - including the 19-1 K/D F6F Hellcat, for example.

Also, von Richthofen would wipe the floor with you in any equal airplane fight. Maybe if you took your sissy F-22 and he took his Dr.1, you'd have a shot. Then again, he'd know his plane better than you would yours.

I agree. Wouldn't want to get in a 1v1 with any ace. I'd rather live to fight another day. I'd learn from every ace that I could, but I'd take shooting up a lame duck any day over going to the merge with a killer.

[haitch40]

Navies have planes, too, slick - including the 19-1 K/D F6F Hellcat, for example.

Also, von Richthofen would wipe the floor with you in any equal airplane fight. Maybe if you took your sissy F-22 and he took his Dr.1, you'd have a shot. Then again, he'd know his plane better than you would yours.

I agree. Wouldn't want to get in a 1v1 with any ace. I'd rather live to fight another day. I'd learn from every ace that I could, but I'd take shooting up a lame duck any day over going to the merge with a killer.

ok thanks for the flaming
btw i said both me and von Richthofen in f22's and i know the navy had planes

[kozzm0]

I agree. Wouldn't want to get in a 1v1 with any ace. I'd rather live to fight another day. I'd learn from every ace that I could, but I'd take shooting up a lame duck any day over going to the merge with a killer.

Funny thing, that was Richthofen's philosophy too. He "lived to fight another day" more often than he fought. That's why he survived to make 82 victories. He wouldn't engage unless he had a decisive advantage.

Best way to avoid a fight with Richthofen would be to find out how Rene Fonck or Billy Bishop painted their planes, and paint yours exactly like it and bring along about 10 wingmen. The Red Baron would generally keep his distance, unless he had 20 planes with him, in which case he'd attack and slaughter you all. Fortunately you can see 20 planes from far away.

Richthofen was killed when Germany was desperate and he had to take on riskier missions. He had also had a head injury from being shot down before, which might have affected his judgement, because he was killed flying low over enemy territory and hit by a AA gun

[The_Goalie_94]

Billy Bishop for me. That guy is my hero.

[lost cause]

If i could fly WITH anyone as a wingman then it would have to be -

Erich Hartmann

(bet you didnt expect me to say that ;) )

He claimed never to of had a wingman killed so flying with him would give me extra confidence knowing he was looking out for me as well as i was supposed to looking out for him. I'd be happy for him to get all the kills, it would be a great learning curve.

Same With Saburo Sakai

[Soviet Ace]

I'm surprised that no one has asked the question, about what skill level we'd be at? Would we be rookies, or already be veterans, or would we be some high scoring ace ourselves; in both later cases, it would be like Ace v. Ace, and you wouldn't have to really worry too much because you'd both know your plane well enough.

Anyway over thinking time over, my Ace would have to be: Ivan Nikitovich Kozhedub aka "Ivan the Terrible". Highest scoring Soviet Ace of WW2.

[Steyr_amr]

me the red barron (forgot his real name) in ww2 planes see how he copes and then put both of us in f22 raptors and see how he does :D would be interesting

I imagine the latter engagement would result in a draw as both of you were sat on the runway trying to figure out how to perform the take-off procedures on an F-22. At least until he got bored, drew his pistol and shot you lol.

Assuming this is a mock dogfight, I'd choose to go up against anyone with similar flying experience as me in any aircraft we could but fly. The closest matches are always the most enthralling.

[Dr. Laplace]

I would fight against Giora Epstein in his Nesher.

[Soulsurfer]

I wouldn't want to dogfight anyone. I prefer to live and not take anothers life :)

[winny]

Ok...
http://cache.boston.com/bonzai-fba/AFP_Photo/2004/02/05/1075982475_5659.jpg

Me and George...

Oh.. Happy Xmas.

[Deascendent]

I wouldn't want to dogfight anyone. I prefer to live and not take anothers life :)

Yea, and if you had your way.. we'd all be speaking german... gotta take the less of two evils. I'm guessing you're not the thrill seeking type of surfer hippie.

[markyboyacebassist]

Highest Scoring Hurricane Pilots

Name


Nationality


Score


Remarks

Pattle, Marmaduke Thomas St John


South African


41


26 on Hurricanes, 80 and 33 Sq, and 15 on Gladiators

Tuck, Robert Roland Stanford


British


29


12 on Hurricanes, 257 Sq, and 17 on Spitfires

Carey, Frank Reginald


British


28


+


All on Hurricanes

Lacey James Harry


British


28


23 on Hurricanes 501 Sq, and 5 on Spitfires

Wade, Lance C


American


25


15 on Hurricanes 33 Sq, and 10 on Spitfires

Vale, William


British


24


+


15 on Hurricanes 80 Sq, and 9 on Gladiators

Drake, Billy


British


23


3 on Hurricanes 1 Sq, 14 on Kittyhawks, and 6 on Spitfires

Allard, Geoffrey


British


23


All on Hurricanes

Bader, Douglas Robert Stewart


British


23


11 on Hurricanes 242 Sq, and 12 on Spitfires

Crossley, Michael Nicholson


British


22


All on Hurricanes

Dalton-Morgan, Thomas Frederick


British


22


All on Hurricanes

Hugo, Petrus Hendrik


South African


22


6 on Hurricanes 615 Sq, and 16 on Spitfires

Stephens, Maurice Michael


British


22


11 on Hurricanes 3, 232, 274, and 80 Sq, 11 on Spitfires

Woodward, Vernon Crompton


Canadian


21


15 on Hurricanes 33, 80 and 274 Sq, and 6 on Gladiators

Hallowes, Herbert James Lampriere


British


21


+


20 on Hurricanes 43 Sq, and 1+ on Spitfires

Demozay, Jean E. F.


French


21


7 on Hurricanes 1 and 242 Sq, and 14 on Spitfires

Hewett, Edward William Foott


British


21


10 on Hurricanes 80 Sq, 5 on Gladiators, and 5 on Other A/C

McKellar, Archie Ashmore


British


21


20 on Hurricanes 605 Sq, and 1 on Spitfires

David, William Dennis


British


20


All on Hurricanes

Marshall, Alfred Ernest


British


19


15 on Hurricanes 73 Sq, and 4 on Spitfires and Mosquitoes

Robinson, Michael Lister


British


19


7 on Hurricanes 601 Sq, and 12 on Spitfires

Dutton, Roy Gilbert


British


19


All on Hurricanes

Brown, Mark Henrey


Canadian


18


+


All on Hurricanes

Boyd, Adrian Hope


British


18


14 on Hurricanes 145 Sq, and 4 on Spitfires

Kuttelwascher, Karel


Czech


18


All on Hurricanes

Lewis, Albert Gerald


South African


18


All on Hurricanes

Mason, Ernest Mitchelson


British


18


All on Hurricanes

Frantisek, Jozef


Czech


17


All on Hurricanes

Kane, Edgar James


New Zealand


17


All on Hurricanes

Neil, Thomas Francis


British


17


All on Hurricanes

Orton, Newell


British


17


15 on Hurricanes 73 Sq, and 2 on Spitfires

Urbanowicz, Witold


Polish


17


All on Hurricanes (Plus 3 on USAAF P-40s)

Cullen, RIchard Nigel


Australian


16


+


9 on Hurricanes 80 Sq, and 7+ on Gladiators

MacLachlan, James Archibald Findlay


British


16


+


13 on Hurricanes 73, 145, 261, and 1 Sq, and 3 on other A/C

McKnight, William Lidstone


Canadian


16


+


All on Hurricanes 242 Sq.

Aitken, John William Maxwell


British


16


7 on Hurricanes 601 Sq, and 9 on other A/C

McKay, Donald Alistair Stewart


British


16


8 on Hurricanes 501 Sq, and 421 Flt, and 8 on Spitfires

Clisby, Leslie Redford


Australian


16


All on Hurricanes 1 Sq.

Llewellyn, Reginald Thomas


British


16


All on Hurricanes 213 Sq.

Nowell, Gareth Leofric


British


16


14 on Hurricanes 87 and 32 Sq, and 2 on other A/C

Sanders, James Gilbert


British


16


6 on Hurricanes 615 Sq, 3 on Gladiators, and 7 on othe A/C

Simpson Peter James


British


16


4 on Hurricanes 111 Sq, and 12 on Spitfires

Brothers, Peter Malam


British


15


9 on Hurricanes 32 and 257 Sq, and 6 on Spitfires

Currant, Christopher Frederick


British


15


All on Hurricanes 151 and 501 Sq.

Czernin, Count Manfred Beckett


British


15


All on Hurricanes 85 and 17 Sq.

Doe, Robert Francis Thomas


British


15


4 on Hurricanes 238 Sq, and 11 on Spitfires

Frost, John Everitt


South African


15


8 on Hurricanes 3 Sq, SAAF, and 7 on Tomahawks

Gleed, Ian Richard


British


15


11 on Hurricanes 87 Sq, and 4 on Spitfires

Higginson Frederick William


British


15


11 on Hurricanes 56 Sq, and 4 on Typhoons

Kilmartin, John Ignatius


British


15


14 on Hurricanes 1 Sq, and 1 on Typhoons

Milne, Richard Maxwell


British


15


8 on Hurricanes 151 Sq, and 7 on Spitfires

Page, Alan Geoffrey


British


15


2 on Hurricanes 56 Sq, and 13 on other A/C

Scoular, John Evelyn


British


15


12 on Hurricanes 73 Sq, and 3 on Gladiators/Tomahawks

Storrar, James Eric


British


15


All on Hurricanes 145 and 73 Sq.

Wykeham-Barnes, Peter Guy


British


15


7 on Hurricanes 80,33,274, and 73 Sq, 5 on Gladiators, 3 Oth

[haitch40]

i have to say i got the obvious answer i didnt want that is i dont want to fight anyone so for those people pretend it was in a state of the art simulator used by the air force

[flynlion]

I imagine the latter engagement would result in a draw as both of you were sat on the runway trying to figure out how to perform the take-off procedures on an F-22. At least until he got bored, drew his pistol and shot you lol.


Ha! That is kinda funny, but I honestly think Richtofen could fly an F-22. He might not fly it very well, at least not without some instruction, but he could certainly get it off the ground. As complex as a modern fighter is it still boils down to throttle, stick, rudder and attitude.

The person I would most like to have as my wingman would be my good friend Patrick Leach. He was killed while flying Apaches in Iraq in 2004, I would dearly love to fly with him again. War sux.

[Soulsurfer]

Yea, and if you had your way.. we'd all be speaking german... gotta take the less of two evils. I'm guessing you're not the thrill seeking type of surfer hippie.

What a ridiculous statement that is to make. So I'm a German Nazi now am I? If I had to dogfight in order to save my family or protect my country then of course I would do it ( given the training obviously). I would not however want to dogfight or kill aother person for no other reason than to experience it, as I'm not an idiot and neither do I relish the thought of taking a life. If it were in a simulator then I wouldn't care who I were up against as I know I will live to see another day.

Your right though I'm not a hippie type, although I love to surf and have done plenty of thrill seeking in my life time :)

[STINGERSIX78]

Ok...
http://cache.boston.com/bonzai-fba/AFP_Photo/2004/02/05/1075982475_5659.jpg

Me and George...

Oh.. Happy Xmas.


HAHAHA, lool...
+1

[Swagger7]

In a simulated dogfight, I'd love to go up against Saburo Sakai with him in a later model zero and me in a La-5 or La-7.

I think one of the most challenging fights would be versus Ilmari Juutilainen, the Finnish ace. He had 94 kills, 34 of them in a Brewster Buffalo. He spent pretty much his entire career fighting superior aircraft and winning anyways. Like Richthofen said, "It's not the machine, it's the man". (Or something to that effect anyway)

Another great fight would be the 25 or so highest scoring WWI aces in their personal planes vs me in a Pitts Special Armed with miniguns, lol!

But in a real dogfight I'd go with winny's idea. It'd be incredibly easy and satisfying, lol!

[STINGERSIX78]

chuck norris...without a plane...


http://neatorama.cachefly.net/images/2008-01/chuck-norris-split-rock.jpg

[philabong2]

Ok...
http://cache.boston.com/bonzai-fba/AFP_Photo/2004/02/05/1075982475_5659.jpg

Me and George...

Oh.. Happy Xmas.

rofl - winner
and id make sure i shot the chute if he ever managed to bail out :grin:

[winny]

rofl - winner
and id make sure i shot the chute if he ever managed to bail out :grin:

I imagine the conversation just before that pic was taken went something along the lines of.. "Now George, we're taking you outside for a picture next to a jet.. try and look like you've been near one before.. Under no circumstances must you get in it and try to fly it.. we have someone who'll do all your flying for you we just need some proof that it was you.. Daddy's got big plans for you"

[flynlion]

I imagine the conversation just before that pic was taken went something along the lines of.. "Now George, we're taking you outside for a picture next to a jet.. try and look like you've been near one before.. Under no circumstances must you get in it and try to fly it.. we have someone who'll do all your flying for you we just need some proof that it was you.. Daddy's got big plans for you"

Bahahaha! Thanks Winny, best laugh I've had all day :-D

[flynlion]

In a simulated dogfight, I'd love to go up against Saburo Sakai with him in a later model zero and me in a La-5 or La-7.


I would love to fly with Saburo Sakai, either as his wingman in a real fight or as my opponent in a simulated one. He saw enough death for several lifetimes during the war, when it was all over he became a devout Buddhist and wouldn't kill a mosquito if it bit him. Definately an interesting personality, and an absolute genius with a Zero. Like most pilots, he was about as far from the "Top Gun" stereotype as you can get.

[Swagger7]

I would love to fly with Saburo Sakai, either as his wingman in a real fight or as my opponent in a simulated one. He saw enough death for several lifetimes during the war, when it was all over he became a devout Buddhist and wouldn't kill a mosquito if it bit him. Definately an interesting personality, and an absolute genius with a Zero. Like most pilots, he was about as far from the "Top Gun" stereotype as you can get.

You would probably be interested in this:

http://www.airpower.maxwell.af.mil/airchronicles/cc/stevens.html

It's an article by a guy who's father was shot down & killed by Sakai in WWII. He met Sakai, who was very friendly to him. Sakai even gave his daughter (a fighter pilot) a small piece of his scarf to carry as a keepsake. Check it out.

[flynlion]

Thank you, Swagger7.

[beaker126]

Francis Gabreski, the guy was a bad@$$.