RAF Hurricane Pic Battle of France May 1940. Important for SoW Devs?

[MB_Avro_UK]

Hi all,

This picture of an RAF Hurricane Mk 1 shot down in the Battle of France ( probably May 1940) raises a number of questions. Maybe important for SoW Devs??

It is clearly a Mk I manufactured in the winter of 1940 (telltales: Rotol paddle-blade wooden prop with round spinner, sword-type radio mast, armour glass windscreen, armour behind pilot's back)' It appears to have a gas detection patch on the leading edge of each wing and very unusually for mid-1940, it has a gun camera in the root of the port wing. Paint on belly: black port wing, aluminum under fuselage, white starboard wing. Strangely, all national markings and squadron codes appear to be missing.

And a bullet hole in the armoured windscreen!


http://i885.photobucket.com/albums/ac58/MB_Avro_UK/schere-39.jpg

Many thanks to Lima-Mike in producing this report.

Best Regards,
MB_Avro.

[Skarphol]

I know next to nothing about Hurricanes, but isn't that aperture in the port wingroot facing too much upwards for beeing a guncamera?

Skarphol

[MB_Avro_UK]

Hi all,

Further information has come to light regarding the suggested Gun Camera port in the picture posted. It maybe an oil filler point.

But the picture still has much to answer.

Reference Lima-Mike.

Best Regards,
MB_Avro.

[SlipBall]

Regarding the two bullet hole's in the front windscreen. I think it possible that to be rifle shot's done at the ground level. Perhaps a curious person wanting to see what an 06 round would do to the screen. I say this because of the grouping of the two shots, and no other evidence of that tight of a grouping on the airframe is visable to me.

[Crumpp]

Great picture and it does raise some interesting questions.

What dates it to the Battle of France?

It is interesting in that it does appear to have wooden blades on the propeller.

AFAIK, the Rotol C/S had metal blades and was not adopted as it did not improve performance over the 2 speed Hamilton.

At least that is what the RAE says and that conclusion is backed up by the data on Williams site. This is actually the correct use of performance comparisons too! We can see the performance improvements brought about by the different configurations and propellers.

http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org/hurricane/hurricane-I.html

The 2 speed DH is a 3 bladed hub. The same hub was later reworked to upgrade to a C/S. I would think most likely this is a 2 speed DH. The question arises about the wooden blades.

http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org/hurricane/l1547.html

I do know that both DH and Rotol built wooden propellers for testing purposes.

Interesting photo and I look forward to learning more about it.

[Igo kyu]

What dates it to the Battle of France?
Aside from anything else, I think the chaps uniform is German, which since the Hurricane was not (I think, informed contradiction would be interesting) used on Rodeos and Circuses, pretty much nails it to the BoF (I always think of Norway as cold, but I suppose that's a possibility).

[Crumpp]

I think the chaps uniform is German,

Maybe, the arrow draw to point out the glass obscures any cap emblem. Besides that, work coveralls and a service cap are common items.

I can't tell what his uniform is from that picture. At least not a thing more than a guess which is not the answer I was looking to get.

There should be something definitive.

On August 19th, 1942, the RAF was called upon to provide air support to the most important offensive of the year, Operation Jubilee, the Allied raid on Dieppe. Fighter Command provided 48 Spitfire squadrons (including several RCAF squadrons: Nos 401, 402, 403, 411, 412 and 416), eight Hurricane squadrons, and three Hawker Typhoon squadrons.

http://www.junobeach.org/e/4/can-tac-air-fig-e.htm

[Lucas_From_Hell]

I wouldn't be so sure... At late 1942, I think most (or all) frontline Hurricanes were already Mark II standard. Just some wild guessing, however...

[Crumpp]

Just some wild guessing, however...

All I am asking for is something besides a guess.

IIRC, Hurricane Mk IIa retained the original Mk I wing armament.

28-Jun-41. Hawker Hurricane AP516 UZ-X. P/O J. Zulikowski.
Shot down by Bf109 over France during Circus 26.

http://www.polishsquadronsremembered.com/306/306_losses.html

[Lucas_From_Hell]

IIRC, Hurricane Mk IIa retained the original Mk I wing armament.

Yes, but the propeller had metal blades, and I think the Mk.IIa later got the slightly longer spinner.

[Crumpp]

the propeller had metal blades

Right, AFAIK all the production Hurricanes 3 bladed propellers used in service were metal.

Now for my original question...

Without taking a guess, what defines this picture as occurring during the Battle of France?

Hurricanes were definitely shot down over France after the Battle of Britain.

[SlipBall]

It seem's possible that this aircraft was in use by the axis prior to its demise. This of course is based on the lack of raf markings...just saying

[Skarphol]

(I always think of Norway as cold, but I suppose that's a possibility).

Norway is not a possibility unless this Hurricane was taking off from an aircraft carrier or MAC-ship, both very unlikely. I don't think any Hurricane ever flew over Norway during WWII. I'm allmost 100% certain that a Hurricane has never been shot down here, anyway.
But the scenery could have been in Norway.

Skarphol

[Igo kyu]

Norway is not a possibility unless this Hurricane was taking off from an aircraft carrier or MAC-ship, both very unlikely. I don't think any Hurricane ever flew over Norway during WWII. I'm allmost 100% certain that a Hurricane has never been shot down here, anyway.
But the scenery could have been in Norway.

Skarphol
I knew I remembered something like this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norwegian_Campaign
After the Allied failure in Central Norway, more preparation was given to the northern forces, including two squadrons of carrier-transported fighters operating from Bardufoss Air Station, one of them consisting of Hurricanes, the other of Gloster Gladiators.

It seems 10 Hurricanes were lost at sea on the way back, I presume there were more, but I don't know so.

[Skarphol]

I knew I remembered something like this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norwegian_Campaign


It seems 10 Hurricanes were lost at sea on the way back, I presume there were more, but I don't know so.

Hi!

You are completely right, and I am completely wrong in this case!!
I had totally forgotten about that squadron who came with HMS Glorious, and was lost on their way back home to Britain.

Some of them where shot down during the Norwegian campaign; like this one: http://ktsorens.tihlde.org/flyvrak/strand.html

or this one:
http://ktsorens.tihlde.org/flyvrak/tjeldoya.html

Then, of course, there are the Russian Hurricanes that flew over Norway from bases in Murmansk.

Skarphol

[Crumpp]

You really think the terrain in the picture looks like Norway?

I think it looks closer to France.

28-Jun-41. Hawker Hurricane AP516 UZ-X. P/O J. Zulikowski.
Shot down by Bf109 over France during Circus 26.

http://www.polishsquadronsremembered.com/306/306_losses.html

[Crumpp]

The first was mounted on 10 January 1941 and consisted of six Blenheims with an escort of six squadrons of Spitfires and Hurricanes. It cost the RAF one Hurricane shot down and two Spitfires written off in landing accidents, one pilot being fatally injured.

On 7 August, six Blenheims were escorted by 18 squadrons of Spitfires and two of Hurricanes. The Luftwaffe refused to be drawn: nevertheless, five Spitfires and a Hurricane were lost.

http://www.deltaweb.co.uk/spitfire/into_fr.htm

May 1941 No 71 receives Hurricane IIAs.

July 1941 No 71 flies 568 operational missions.

2 July 1941 While escorting Blenheim bombers to Lille, France, No 71 is jumped by 25 to 30 Me 109Es. S/L Woodhouse destroyed a 109, Gus Daymond destroyed a 109, P/O Bill Dunn destroyed a 109, and Bob Mannix got a damaged. Bill Hall bailed and was taken POW.

http://www.fourthfightergroup.com/eagles/timeline.html

[Igo kyu]

You really think the terrain in the picture looks like Norway?

I think it looks closer to France.
Sure, but it's not impossible it's Norway, that's all I was saying, I didn't even know for sure Hurricanes were lost there until today.

About whether the man in the photo is wearing a German uniform, the collar of the uniform looks German to me. Though on a second look I'm not so sure about German, but I think not British, though I'm aware I'm no expert.

[Crumpp]

Sure, but it's not impossible it's Norway, that's all I was saying, I didn't even know for sure Hurricanes were lost there until today.

It is not impossible at all. I just thought there might have been some definitive feature that pinned it at Norway.

I am still looking for the definitive detail that pins it as the Battle of France.

[SlipBall]

Placing the aircraft's location would be impossible, but it is an interesting photo

[Crumpp]

it is an interesting photo

It is an interesting photo. I would love to learn more about it, especially the propeller.

I wonder where the original poster is at??

:confused:

[Zorin]

This actually doesn't look like the plane ditched there. You can see the grass in the background is perfectly alright, no sign of a swath being cut through it.

Additionally, there is no evident combat damage. It rather looks like an abandoned plane that has been set to the outskirt of a makeshift airfield to be stripped off vital parts (armament).

Therefor I'd say it was ferried to France, but before it could receive unit designations the airfield was run over and the crew took out anything they could use for spares and left it lying in the field.

[Crumpp]

The probability of survival is directly proportional to the angle of arrival......AND speed.


There is not necessarily going to be a ditch behind the airplane. It has clearly made a gear up landing as evidenced by the propeller and it looks like the aircraft has rotated ~120 degrees which is common when the gear collapses / wing drag occurs.

You can set one down gear up and off runway with surprisingly little ground damage. Friend of mine did it about 4 months ago in his Bonanza....

[Crumpp]

The pilot of this Spitfire was over Upottery field when he had problems changing from one fuel tank to another. He landed wheels down but when he realised he was going to collide with some parked C-47’s he pulled his landing gear up and slid safely to a stop.

No big ditches here either...

http://www.southwestairfields.com/page14.html

Airplanes are funny like that when ditched. Sometimes they will plough up the pavement or like my friends Bo, barely break a few grass stalks.

[JVM]

I think this A/C may have been shot down.
Nothing lets think it was abandoned; other abandoned A/C usually show as at least a little bit burnt-out wrecks due to standing order to destroy whatever is left behind...and they were usually on their wheels!

Nothing like that here:

- thoroughly sawed-off propeller blades
- everything easily removable removed (access panels, covers, spinner...)
- identification marks supporting surfaces removed, not absent! on the rear fuselage one can clearly see the tubular structure because someone removed the canvas...

All this means souvenir hunters, german ones in this case...This was typical of the time (1940) and of the curiosity of advancing troops when seeing a shot down aircraft!

Beside I believe the half black+ half light green or blue underwing colors have been used on England-based aircraft, not French-based, but I would not be certain about this.

JV

[Crumpp]

This was typical of the time (1940)

You really think looting the airplane dates it to just 1940?

I would think souvenir hunting is a human activity not restricted to a time period in six years of conflict.

I think this A/C may have been shot down.

I agree. There was also multiple Hurricanes brought down over Occupied Europe in 1941-42.

As for the "1940 distinguishing features" of the aircraft such as the armor, I know some Luftwaffe units flew early war aircraft all the way until the end. Jabostaffle, JG5 for example flew FW-190A2/3's until 1944-45 time period.

Certainly not common for such an early variants to be in use that late in the war but it did occur.

An aircraft to be operating a few years past its manufacture date is not unusual at all though.

[SlipBall]

My thought's on being shot down differ. I think this aircraft was most likly used in an early type of Zirkus Rosarius, and had a mishap on landing one day. Because of the damage and lack of replacement parts, she was left at the fields edge and forgotten.

[MB_Avro_UK]

Hi all,

As the OP I'd like to say that I appreciate your inputs. Yes, it's an interesting photograph. The soldier appears to have LW piping on the collar tab.

This second photograph of a Hurricane is similar. The rear has German writing upon it and indicates June 1940 with probably a French location.

http://i885.photobucket.com/albums/ac58/MB_Avro_UK/schere-38.jpg


Best Regards,
MB_Avro.

[SlipBall]

(quote)
This picture of an RAF Hurricane Mk 1 shot down in the Battle of France ( probably May 1940)



I was just wondering how you reached this conclusion (battle of France), did the first photo also have writing on it's back, if so, could you post an img of it, thanks

[MB_Avro_UK]

First photo had nothing on the back. But there are similarities with the second photo.

As regards the first photo, the lack of RAF markings on the fuselage,fin and wings make it unlikely that it flew from England in 1941/2. And the countryside is very much French.

I'm sure that there is a lot that happened during the Battle of France that is not in the Text Books. And this applies to perhaps all historical periods. That is why photos such as these are so interesting.

Best Regards,
MB_Avro.

[Crumpp]

Do you know who's writing is on the back? By that, Is it the guy who took the photo or is someone who bought the photo postwar and wrote down what they thought?

I ask because I have friends who have been scammed on photos before.

As regards the first photo, the lack of RAF markings on the fuselage,fin and wings make it unlikely that it flew from England in 1941/2.

Why is it unique to the Battle of France? AFAIK, Insignia were often time taken for souvenirs by folks on the ground.

And the countryside is very much French.

I agree but cannot be certain.

I'm sure that there is a lot that happened during the Battle of France that is not in the Text Books. And this applies to perhaps all historical periods. That is why photos such as these are so interesting.

There is an unbelievable amount of lost knowledge out there from the war.

You just have to be very careful and vet your sources well.

[Richard]

Aside from anything else, I think the chaps uniform is German, which since the Hurricane was not (I think, informed contradiction would be interesting) used on Rodeos and Circuses, pretty much nails it to the BoF (I always think of Norway as cold, but I suppose that's a possibility).

It's not in Norway. Afaik, only the 46sqn flew in Norway, from Bardufoss Air Station, and this is how they were marked:
http://www.rafweb.org/SqnMark046.htm
(The Hurri is about 1/3rd down on the page)

The Hurri in this pic has obviously another paint-scheme, so it cannot be from the 46sqn.

[MB_Avro_UK]

Do you know who's writing is on the back? By that, Is it the guy who took the photo or is someone who bought the photo postwar and wrote down what they thought?

I ask because I have friends who have been scammed on photos before.



Why is it unique to the Battle of France? AFAIK, Insignia were often time taken for souvenirs by folks on the ground.



I agree but cannot be certain.



There is an unbelievable amount of lost knowledge out there from the war.

You just have to be very careful and vet your sources well.


It would not be possible to remove the national markings without removing the fabric of the fuselage and fin. They were painted on. Souvenir hunters had to cut away the fabric.

There has been no cutting in the first photo. Therefore, in my opinion the national markings for a reason as yet unkown were not applied.

And yes, it's possible that the writing on the rear could be faked. But I don't see that either of the photos themselves are faked. Unless of course someone has rebuilt two damaged Hurricanes recently:cool:


Best Regards,
MB_Avro.

[SlipBall]

If you look very closely at the first photo, you can just make out the circle of the former national marking, it appears a lighter color compared to the rest of the nearby area. It seems to me that it was painted over for what ever reason.

[Crumpp]

It would not be possible to remove the national markings without removing the fabric of the fuselage and fin.


The fabric is removed from the fuselage and the vertical stabilizer (fin?) is not exposed in the film. I can only make out the silhouette with no details on the v. stab.

It looks like it has 6 gun bays on the right wing too. How are you ruling out that they are not outboard gun bays?

[Crumpp]

It seems to me that it was painted over for what ever reason.
__________________

I do see the faint outline of the roundel. Not sure if it painted over or just the camera's interpretation of the light off the fabric doping.

[zodiac]

For everybody who's interested in the mysterious hurricane or the history of hurricanes in general, here is some more stuff to think about:

I've compared the photo with some paint schemes of Belgian Hurricanes from the period 1939-1940. The Belgian roundel was a lot smaller and was also situated a little more to the bottom of the fuselage in comparison with British Hurricanes. Still, the piece of canvas that was cut out seems a little bit small to carry a Belgian roundel. On the other hand, the roundel was the only thing that was on the Belgian fuselages, so that could explain the absence of squadron codes. Belgian Hurricanes only got a number painted on their rudder (that area isn't on the photo). All the Belgian Hurricanes I've seen did not have a flag painted on the tail, for as far as I see, this hurricane neither...

At first I also considered that this was an airplane that didn't got his national markings painted on yet when it was destroyed. But that seems not logical because there must have been something that those souvenir hunters found interesting enough to cut out...

There are also a lot of facts that make the possibility that this was Hurricane with Belgian Markings doubtfull. The main one is that the version the Belgian military bought (some 20 planes) were all from the early type with the two bladed propellor. It's clear that this can't be one of the original Belgian planes.

An interesting detail is that Belgium possesed at the beginning of the war some Hurricanes that they had captured from the British! In the months that preceded the German offensive Belgium tried very hard to maintain their neutrality. It happened that British Hurricanes ran out of fuel and landed on Belgian soil. Those British pilots where then captured and their planes joined Belgian regiments.
The situation of neutrality caused also some funny events. On day during the phoney war a British Hurricane ran out of fuel and landed on a long straight road, just a few hundred meters from the French border. Civilians informed the pilot that he was on Belgian soil and pushed the plane a few hundred meters down the road so it was back in France again. The plane was refueled and the pilot could rejoin his squadron.

As for me, the black and white undersurface of the Hurricane from the picture and his three-bladed prop, proofs that it was (at least originaly) a British plane. The Belgian undersurfaces were only one color.

It takes a lot of remarks to fit this picture into the story of the captured hurricanes... Still it is not impossible that a British hurricane with three propblades landed in Belgium and was transeferd to a Belgian airfield. It's possible that they didn't repaint the whole plane but just changed the national markings.

In each case, the chance that this plane saw combat if it was Belgian in may 40 is very small, because almost all the Belgian hurricanes were destroyed on the ground during the first hours of the war.

That's a big load of history that that photo would carry with it if it was indeed one of those captured hurricanes. I fear, that once again the truth maybe isn't that impressive and it's just a scrapped hurri without national markings on an field somewhere on the countryside ;)

[TheGrunch]

It looks like it has 6 gun bays on the right wing too. How are you ruling out that they are not outboard gun bays?
If I'm not mistaken, that's the landing light bay.

[MB_Avro_UK]

For everybody who's interested in the mysterious hurricane or the history of hurricanes in general, here is some more stuff to think about:

I've compared the photo with some paint schemes of Belgian Hurricanes from the period 1939-1940. The Belgian roundel was a lot smaller and was also situated a little more to the bottom of the fuselage in comparison with British Hurricanes. Still, the piece of canvas that was cut out seems a little bit small to carry a Belgian roundel. On the other hand, the roundel was the only thing that was on the Belgian fuselages, so that could explain the absence of squadron codes. Belgian Hurricanes only got a number painted on their rudder (that area isn't on the photo). All the Belgian Hurricanes I've seen did not have a flag painted on the tail, for as far as I see, this hurricane neither...

At first I also considered that this was an airplane that didn't got his national markings painted on yet when it was destroyed. But that seems not logical because there must have been something that those souvenir hunters found interesting enough to cut out...

There are also a lot of facts that make the possibility that this was Hurricane with Belgian Markings doubtfull. The main one is that the version the Belgian military bought (some 20 planes) were all from the early type with the two bladed propellor. It's clear that this can't be one of the original Belgian planes.

An interesting detail is that Belgium possesed at the beginning of the war some Hurricanes that they had captured from the British! In the months that preceded the German offensive Belgium tried very hard to maintain their neutrality. It happened that British Hurricanes ran out of fuel and landed on Belgian soil. Those British pilots where then captured and their planes joined Belgian regiments.
The situation of neutrality caused also some funny events. On day during the phoney war a British Hurricane ran out of fuel and landed on a long straight road, just a few hundred meters from the French border. Civilians informed the pilot that he was on Belgian soil and pushed the plane a few hundred meters down the road so it was back in France again. The plane was refueled and the pilot could rejoin his squadron.

As for me, the black and white undersurface of the Hurricane from the picture and his three-bladed prop, proofs that it was (at least originaly) a British plane. The Belgian undersurfaces were only one color.

It takes a lot of remarks to fit this picture into the story of the captured hurricanes... Still it is not impossible that a British hurricane with three propblades landed in Belgium and was transeferd to a Belgian airfield. It's possible that they didn't repaint the whole plane but just changed the national markings.

In each case, the chance that this plane saw combat if it was Belgian in may 40 is very small, because almost all the Belgian hurricanes were destroyed on the ground during the first hours of the war.

That's a big load of history that that photo would carry with it if it was indeed one of those captured hurricanes. I fear, that once again the truth maybe isn't that impressive and it's just a scrapped hurri without national markings on an field somewhere on the countryside ;)


Good post. We may never know the exact facts. Or maybe we will??

Best Regards
MB_Avro.

[tools4fools]

Was digging around a bit; for the props I searched around for Spitfires as well, and found this comment:

What is beyond doubt is that Rotol props with wooden blades were over Dunkirk but fitted to Hurricanes with RX5/2 props with Weybridge DR.291 blades or possibly RX5/5 props with Jablo RA.4067 blades.


and

As we all know, the Hurricane was intially fitted with a Watts 2-bladed prop with a small pointed spinner. This was followed by a De Havilland 2-position prop, followed shortly thereafter with a De Hsavilland costant speed 'bracket' prop, both of which had the shorter but rather pointed spinner. About March 1940 the Rotol RX5/2 was introduced on the Hurricane with the rather longer but stubby looking spinner.

taken from here:
http://forum.keypublishing.co.uk/showthread.php?t=87258

So it seems that there were 3 blade wooden props around, would explain the broken prop blades (rather than bent). Images of a Ju88 with wooden broken props I have seen looked same, clean straight cuts when broken.

The black/white underpaint seems to indicate France:
http://www.wonwinglo.scale-models.net/id47.htm
Scroll down to the Hurricane just past the He111 pattern.

If you do a google search you find more images with black/bright under pants:
http://www.nvva.nl/renekrul/catalogs/hawker.hurricane.l.--kt-.jpg
Some earlies had precious little markings:
http://homepages.tesco.net/~mrogers/CBFS/history-pg3.html
http://www.wwiivehicles.com/unitedkingdom/aircraft/fighter/hawker-hurricane/hawker-hurricane-mk-i-01.jpg
However hard to say what happened to the markings.

Early Hurricanes lacked armour or self-sealing tanks. They used "ring and bead" gunsights, with the ring being mounted above the instrument panel and the bead mounted on a post above the engine cowling. The standard GM2 reflector gunsight was introduced in mid-1939, although many Hurricanes retained the "bead".

Looks like the Hurri in the pics is one of those that retained the bead.

4 Wing guns, outer bays are for lights.
Gun camera seem to have been mounted outside, near the guns themselves, while closer inside at wing roots there was oil tank indeed:
http://www.flightglobal.com/airspace/media/militaryaviation1903-1945cutaways/images/10588/hawker-hurricane-cutaway.jpg
This might be a gun cam mount, albeit in other wing:
http://mm04.nasaimages.org/MediaManager/srvr?mediafile=/Size4/nasaNAS-2-NA/18762/EL-2000-00210.jpg&userid=1&username=admin&resolution=4&servertype=JVA&cid=2&iid=nasaNAS&vcid=NA&usergroup=nasa&profileid=9
Bad quality, but shows something round on left wing which does not exist on right wing. Maybe really connected with oil tank as seems only one oil tank in the plane, not in both wings.

Plenty of rough field in front of airplane, guess it came down wheels up and then turned around just before it got to a stop.

Two of these fellow have seemingly same strip at uniform collar, and they sure look German to me:
http://crbolch.com/hurricanedown2.jpg
As do the 3 fellows at bottom of engine in this pic:
http://crbolch.com/do17&crew.jpg


++++

[MB_Avro_UK]

Interesting info, thanks.

This is a photo of a Hurricane in France. In front of the Hurricane can be seen the wing roundel of a damaged French aircraft.

Of interest is that the Hurricane has an anti-glare metal plate positioned between the exhaust and the cockpit for night flying. It's generally thought that this adaption was only fitted during the later Battle of Britain period.

http://i885.photobucket.com/albums/ac58/MB_Avro_UK/Bg9ZTQmkKGrHqMOKjcEsTZkz3hBLHSoGHd5.jpg


Best Regards,
MB_Avro

[RedToo]

Hi MB,

The Hurricane in the pics part way down this page had recently returned from the Battle of France when it was photographed. It sports the anti glare panels.

http://simhq.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/topics/2682133/1.html

RedToo.