A few more questions for the experts

[luthier]

Hi everyone,

Need some quick help with a few rather diverse questions. Hope you guys will have some insight.

1. What were the standards for painting the insides of ship vents? Most civilians paint them red. How were they painted on German and British warships?

2. Any info on Italian radio navigation equipment installed on the BR-20? We have some, but we could use a manual, or at least a detailed descriptions of what knobs one needed to turn to do what to which gauge.

3. Same on British radio navigation equipment and direction finding. Where were the frequencies set, how were they made available to the flight crew (maps, lists, etc), who turned which knob where, etc.

4. Any info on historical radio stations operating during BoB - locations, frequencies, ranges, etc - would be nice, for both sides of the Channel.

[Edit] Couple more

5. What color were Italian torpedoes?

6. Hypothetically, let's say, a group of Spitfires is talking to the ground on 347 Khz. A German bomber over the Channel just happens to have his radio man listening to 347 KHz. Theoretically, he could he get a vector on the British squadron, right? Did something like this ever take place?

[SlipBall]

Found this, will keep searching

http://www.royalsignals.org.uk/

http://books.google.com/books?id=0vomT0cjY9IC&pg=PA10&lpg=PA10&dq=paint+schemes+on+early+20th+century+british+shi ps&source=bl&ots=2R8g04ShYz&sig=QtzJqf1HFBfdowWhn9Sfbhhfk1Y&hl=en&ei=TaIXS7fVFYSHlAe_iszfAg&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=7&ved=0CB4Q6AEwBg#v=onepage&q=&f=false

http://smmlonline.com/articles/regiamarinacamo/italiancamo.html

http://www.stormomagazine.com/RegiaAeronauticaColorsinWWII_3a.htm#CMPR%20Camoufl age%20Schemes%20:%201936-1943

Oleg's great grandfather:grin:
http://www.arlingtoncemetery.net/chmaddox.htm

[Zorin]

@4: http://www.atlantikwall.info/radar/radar.htm

[HenFre]

Found these pictures of italian torpedo's, but i do not know if the colours are correct.. I'll keep looking :)

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2595/4155531214_025af4b6eb_o.jpg

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2522/4155564814_ce512dbf7c_o.jpg

[PeterD]

6. Hypothetically, let's say, a group of Spitfires is talking to the ground on 347 Khz. A German bomber over the Channel just happens to have his radio man listening to 347 KHz. Theoretically, he could he get a vector on the British squadron, right? Did something like this ever take place?
No, unless the radio antenna is directional, which I think it wasn't the case.
EDIT: AFAIK they were just isotropic (the bombers' antennas I mean).

[Zorin]

This document lists all German frequencies for radio equipment(till 1942): http://www.cockpitinstrumente.de/archiv/Dokumente/ABC/f/Funk/Funkger%E4te%20der%20Luftwaffe.pdf

[HenFre]

Just a few questions for you Luthier. What are the italian torpedoes to be used by: Planes? (if yes what plane('s)) Ships?

Hope it is not for the BR.20 Cicogna because, and I quote:

"The Sparvieros superior agility enabled it to perform as a torpedo-bomber, while the Cicogna was never considered for that role."

http://www.absoluteastronomy.com/topics/Fiat_BR.20

Or are you also building a Sparvieros?? ;-)

[Jg2001_Rasputin]

1. What were the standards for painting the insides of ship vents? Most civilians paint them red. How were they painted on German and British warships?


There are various coulor variations for different kinds of ships, but german warships obviously used RAL 7001 (http://www.bbtec.de/far.html) for the inside of vents.

Colour specifications of the Kriegsmarine:
http://www.die-graue-flotte.de/magic_viewtopic.php?f=64&t=592

Colours of the Kriegsmarine:
http://www.die-graue-flotte.de/magic_viewtopic.php?f=64&t=50

[Jg2001_Rasputin]

Could you provide us with a little more information regarding the italian torpedo?

Do you mean the 17.7" (45 cm) F200/450 x 5.46 type torpedo (german designation: F5W) ?

List of italian torpedos:
http://www.navweaps.com/Weapons/WTIT_WWII.htm

[PeterPanPan]

6. Hypothetically, let's say, a group of Spitfires is talking to the ground on 347 Khz. A German bomber over the Channel just happens to have his radio man listening to 347 KHz. Theoretically, he could he get a vector on the British squadron, right? Did something like this ever take place?

I'm sure I have read something about this in one of my books - all first hand accounts/diaries by WWII RAF pilots. Either in Spitfire Pilot by David Crank or First Light by Geoffrey Wellum. I will have a flick through and see what I can find.

Cheers

PPanPan

[luthier]

Could you provide us with a little more information regarding the italian torpedo?

Do you mean the 17.7" (45 cm) F200/450 x 5.46 type torpedo (german designation: F5W) ?

List of italian torpedos:
http://www.navweaps.com/Weapons/WTIT_WWII.htm

That's right, that's the torpedo.

We have a lot of B&W photos of it, where it mostly looks like the body was left unpainted bare metal, and the head was either also bare metal, or painted various colors. Definitely looks like more than one color on different photos, so we're kind of confused. Were there different sub-variants that were painted differently, or simply no standard at all?

[Edit] And yes, this is for the BR-20.

Also, thanks everyone for the other answers, but keep it coming!

[mark@1C]

I can do nothing else,but a Google searching,may it help you.
and this time I will focus my searching on Radio Navigation and so on.
I"m not sure what's your meaning of "quick".If it's not in a very hurry.I can do searching like this every time I've got some leisure.
and maybe you can put some Information Requests to us(all your fans) once a week,for example.I believe it's a pleasure for many fans to help you.

some results from Google about Radio matter,

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_the_Beams
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_World_War_II_electronic_warfare_equipment
http://www.taphilo.com/history/WWII/wwii-navigation.shtml
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GEE_(navigation)
http://www.vectorsite.net/ttwiz.html
http://www.cvni.net/radio/nsnl/nsnl124/nsnl124ww2de.html
http://www.carc.org.uk/html/archive2.html
http://www.xs4all.nl/~aobauer/knickebein_fug28a.htm
http://www.486th.org/Photos/AC2/MkySet.htm
http://www.spitfirespares.com/SpitfireSpares.com/Pages/radio%202l.html
http://elshamwolds.50g.com/cologne1942.html
http://www.pdf-search-engine.com/avionics-navigation-systems-pdf.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oboe_(navigation)
http://www.xs4all.nl/~aobauer/Navigati.pdf
http://s110605900.websitehome.co.uk/beams/beam-main-a.htm

[HenFre]

That's right, that's the torpedo.

We have a lot of B&W photos of it, where it mostly looks like the body was left unpainted bare metal, and the head was either also bare metal, or painted various colors. Definitely looks like more than one color on different photos, so we're kind of confused. Were there different sub-variants that were painted differently, or simply no standard at all?

[Edit] And yes, this is for the BR-20.

Also, thanks everyone for the other answers, but keep it coming!

Hmm.. This actually concerns me alot to hear. Especially that last part about the torpedo being for the BR.20 :confused:
I did not know a lot about the BR.20, but since your request have done a study of it on various sites on the internet. On every site it is said, that the BR.20 was never used as a torpedo-bomber and never was concidered for this role.
Do anyone or you Luthier have another angel on this?

Here is some of the homepages I have visited:

http://www.xs4all.nl/~fbonne/warbirds/ww2htmls/fiatbr20.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fiat_BR.20

[luthier]

Hmm.. This actually concerns me alot to hear. Especially that last part about the torpedo being for the BR.20 :confused:
I did not know a lot about the BR.20, but since your request have done a study of it on various sites on the internet. On every site it is said, that the BR.20 was never used as a torpedo-bomber and never was concidered for this role.
Do anyone or you Luthier have another angel on this?

Here is some of the homepages I have visited:

http://www.xs4all.nl/~fbonne/warbirds/ww2htmls/fiatbr20.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fiat_BR.20

Errm I think we had a little bit of a miscommunication here, or rather a little mess-up on my part. It is indeed not for the BR-20. :shock:

But we still need the color anyway.

Also, any info on any Italian armaments would be appreciated. What's the difference between a 100M and a 100T, etc?

[HenFre]

Great.. Crisis averted.. We can go down to DEFCON 3 again :grin:

Here is one picture, that I believe shows the head of the torpedo being coloured and the main body being metal:

http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4004/4157146759_6fe85887a9_o.jpg

(I think the strips on the head should be painted red and white)

Just found this on Youtube:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4cl69qp5O78

[luthier]

Here is one picture, that I believe shows the head of the torpedo being coloured and the main body being metal:

http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4004/4157146759_6fe85887a9_o.jpg

(I think the strips on the head should be painted red and white)

Thanks! We have tons of B&W photos, and I think the striped head one is a training torpedo. But we need to know what color to paint ours... I doubt we'll be lucky to find a color period photo of one,and modern ones don't look the same. I think our best bet is some sort of a period document that lists different munitions type and their colors, like we have for other nations.

[150GCT_Veltro]

2. Any info on Italian radio navigation equipment installed on the BR-20? We have some, but we could use a manual, or at least a detailed descriptions of what knobs one needed to turn to do what to which gauge.

5. What color were Italian torpedoes?

rgr, i'll ask for official info.

[HenFre]

I will show you some colour fotos I found:

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2590/4157261533_2a89b081c7_o.jpg
http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4040/4158021760_3fd8617f48_o.jpg

(torpedo type: Silurificio Italiano)

[150GCT_Veltro]

[Edit] And yes, this is for the BR-20.

Wait a moment please. Torpedo for Br.20?! No torpedo for this bird, but only bombs. Where did you hear about it?

[HenFre]

Errm I think we had a little bit of a miscommunication here, or rather a little mess-up on my part. It is indeed not for the BR-20. :shock:

But we still need the color anyway.

Also, any info on any Italian armaments would be appreciated. What's the difference between a 100M and a 100T, etc?

Do not worry Veltro. He has allready stated above, that the torpedo is not for the BR.20 :)

[150GCT_Veltro]

Do not worry Veltro. He has allready stated above, that the torpedo is not for the BR.20 :)

Hops, sorry mate you are right. My apologies.

About M & T, we did send all in Moscow several years ago if i remember well. I need to check again, but we should have all info you need about M, T ecc. ecc. (explosive type). But i need to search in my books and magazines, or waiting for friends reply.

[Abraxa]

Checking few pictures of SM79s and Italian torpedos, it really seems there's no real standardization in terms of colours.
It is possible that the "head" was painted in red sometimes, but I wouldn't draw any rule, IMHO.
Here's an interesting pict of a SM79's torpedo that I found online. It's taken at the Vigna di Valle Museum.

http://lh4.ggpht.com/_yBKu6IwRjCY/Sf3z7F6i8OI/AAAAAAAABaI/280jtsAH-K0/DSCF1139.JPG

Although I would not follow the pict for the red nose as a rule, the grey colour looks quite realistic to me. Should I judge from the war picts I would say that the colour was either grey (the ordinary "grigioazzurro"?), either bare metal, maybe depending upon the producer. I guess that Veltro will be able to collect all the needed information on the Italian forum. :)

EDIT: one more pict.
http://media.photobucket.com/image/sm79%20colours/warhog59/SiaiMarchettiSM79Sparviero-003.jpg
The nuance of gray looks way too lucid to me, in this restored piece, although the gray tonality doesn't look so bad.

[150GCT_Veltro]

Ok, i've found something (from "Storia Militare", a very good magazine).

http://www.150gct.it/users/150GCT_Veltro/bombelegenda.JPG

100M is for "Bomba Mina" (roads, railways, light tonelage ships, bridges).

100T is for "Bomba Torpedine" (heavy targets, structures, medium tonelage ships)

I need to search again for explosives (TNT ecc. ecc..).

M = Mina (italian) = Mine (english)
T = Torpedine (italian) = Torpedo (english)
100 = 100 Kg bomb

[Alien]

6. Hypothetically, let's say, a group of Spitfires is talking to the ground on 347 Khz. A German bomber over the Channel just happens to have his radio man listening to 347 KHz. Theoretically, he could he get a vector on the British squadron, right? Did something like this ever take place?


Yes, on 6th September one of german pilots told to 303. Squadron to break and return to base, and Poles didn't knew that it wasn't tower. That's only example I know.

[PeterD]

Yes, on 6th September one of german pilots told to 303. Squadron to break and return to base, and Poles didn't knew that it wasn't tower. That's only example I know.

Get a vector means know their (approximate) location if I'm not mistaken, not the same as communicating with them.

[Zorin]

luthier I sent you a PM with lots of manuals for all nations. Should be quite helpful.

[Alien]

I know, PeterD, but though, if they didn't knew about ,,vectoring" that they didn't knew about it, too.

[bolox]

re british radio
http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/23110283/m/7361019197?r=7361019197#7361019197
might be of some use?

[HenFre]

Regarding colours of the Italian torpedoes i recieved the following answer from an expert on the field:

"Italian torpedoes were left in natural metal overall, and were greased with oil in order to prevent corrosion. Detachable wooden tail was painted light grey. Silurificio Italiano's built examples had a cap that was usually a light colour, probably the grey as above, but perhaps also the same light blue of propeller blades. Sometimes they appeared dark, like standard Italian Dark Olive Green, or possibly a dark blue used for Italian bombs"

Here is a link to their colourguide to planes, ships and their crews:
http://www.stormomagazine.com/RegiaAeronauticaColorsinWWII_3a.htm

[blottogg]

Get a vector means know their (approximate) location if I'm not mistaken, not the same as communicating with them.

The bomber using the radio to determine the relative position of intercepting fighters would depend on a couple of things:

1) Being on the right frequency. From Bolox's link, the British TR9 HF radio was tuned to a single frequency on the ground (4.3-6.0 KHz). I don't know about the frequency tuning abilities of German bomber radios, but if they could tune to this frequency, they could listen in.

2) The bomber crew would have to know that they were the target the fighters were being vectored towards. With multiple interceptor and bomber flights, this might not be easy to suss out. Given the short duration of fighter transmissions, D/F-ing the interceptors directly would be difficult, unless they were "holding down" to allow their own GCI to D/F their position. The TR9 apparently had a separate transmission frequency for this purpose.

3) The German on the radio would need to know not just English, but RAF GCI terminology. "Judy", "Buster", "Bandit", "Bogey", and "Angels" are all terms we're familiar with after years of flight sim experience (these terms also still mean the same thing in modern GCI, too), but they're not exactly conversational English.

If they could do that (and remember to take GCI's vector heading and use its reciprocal to look for the incoming interceptors), they could get an advanced warning of the Hurricanes and/or Spitfires. Other than the above example, I don't know of the Germans trying to listen in, though I don't think it would be too difficult. The example above makes sense to me, as I would think the Polish (and other pilots who weren't native English speakers) would be more vulnerable to spoofing.

[Zorin]

Detailed references on the radar installations with maps and all: http://www.gyges.dk/Flum%20and%20Jagd.htm

[bolox]

found a pic of halifax df wheel
http://i240.photobucket.com/albums/ff27/bolox00/halifaxdfwheel.jpg

and its location in w/op position
http://i240.photobucket.com/albums/ff27/bolox00/dfposition.jpg
hope this helps

[Tbag]

Not excactly the inside of the vents but still interesting:

http://www.ww2incolor.com/d/7598-5/lutzow_and_admiral_scheer.jpg

[Crumpp]

6. Hypothetically, let's say, a group of Spitfires is talking to the ground on 347 Khz. A German bomber over the Channel just happens to have his radio man listening to 347 KHz. Theoretically, he could he get a vector on the British squadron, right? Did something like this ever take place?

It is highly unlikely the German crew would be listening directly to the British squadron on their frequency. They would be on their assigned frequencies for the mission the unit was undertaking.

Now indirectly, this did occur.

The Germans, like the Allies, broke the codes and could listen in on most of the Allied communications.

Just like we did, they monitored communications and based decisions off that intelligence. In this case, a controller would most likely vector the formation or alert them of presence of the enemy aircraft.

To facilitate such actions, both sides developed and used IFF or Identification Friend or Foe equipment. This allowed the controller to keep track of friendly aircraft without having to constantly ask if they were friendly. Anything that did not query as friendly, was of course an enemy aircraft.

[bolox]

i agree it would be unlikely for 'listening in to happen
but let's look at the frequencies

http://goto.glocalnet.net/bosradio/STC%20R1082eng/R1082overview.htm
wellington radio- slightly more capable than the tr9 receiving from 111kc/s-15mc/s, transmitting 136-500kc/s and 1.5-15mc/s

some info on british radios
http://home.btconnect.com/gmb/airequip.htm

now compare to the fug 10 setup in a german bomber
http://www.laud.no/ww2/e10k/index.htm
300-600kc/s and 3-6mc/s

so it is theoretically possible

[Crumpp]

so it is theoretically possible

I agree it is possible.

I remember listening to Cambodian Army patrols on the other side of the border on a PRC-77 in Thailand when I was in the service. We just happened across their frequency.

Neat presentation on German radios:

http://www.nsarc.ca/hf/german_radio.pdf

[Viking]

If they, the Germans, had the gear to tune in to the British frequencies and use the direction finding antennas to give a bearing to the source what would that tell them?
British fighters over England!

And how hard was that to anticipate?

Regards

Viking

[Crumpp]

Actually it is harder in reality than you might think.

Airplanes have a finite amount of fuel with which to find the enemy and fight.

It was very possible to fool the defenses the slip in with little to no opposition. This is why decoy raids and radio traffic deceptions where run.