If we had a pilot model in the interior cockpit view, think of the possibilities...

[Mysticpuma]

Hopefully Oleg will read this post!

Oleg, the engine you are using for the new Sim, looks like it is made for detail and will (I guess) initially be a challenge for some computers, as Il2 was (and to an extent still can be).

Would you please consider adding a pilot's body for the internal cockpit view for a few immersion reasons.

Firstly it would be great to look down and see a body in the cockpit as you fly rather than just a Ghost flying the interior view.

Secondly rather than clicking on the map button and bringing up the mini view, the player could look to the left or right hip and click the button and the pilots hand would then take a map out, this would allow the head to turn in the cockpit, without the view being blocked by the map overlay but the pilot could glance at the map. A (moving) pencil drawing of the aircraft could show the current position?

Thirdly it could be used to add a completely new immersion experience with body specific injury affecting flight.

Instead of the current aircraft damage affecting flight and the pilots view, when injured, steadily getting redder, why not have a five-point injury mark on the body (invisible to the player....but I'll explain). The body has a damage mark added to the legs, arms and chest andmaybe a sixth for the head.

While flying a bullet from an enemy aircraft hits the pilots body (which we can now see if this is included) in the cockpit.

Suddenly it's hard to turn the aircraft left. The Rudder isn't damaged, but looking down you see blood on the leg which is causing the pilot to be hindered in his operation of the aircraft. Similar could be done for the arms, and the chest could mean a steady greying/blacking or redding out?

The pilot has an emergency button which brings out a small medical kit which takes 30-seconds to apply, in which time the pilot is trying to fly and apply a life-saving medical kit. It's immersive!

Lastly, if an injury point was added to the head, as long as the hit wasn't fatal, it would look good to have blood trickling down the screen and the pilots hand wiping it away, but the screen gets smeared, making visibility more difficult, which it would be if you were injured?

After the above, I hope you see why I request that a pilots body be added to the cockpit as it would add so much more scope to the simulation scenario?

Looking forward to seeing the Sim one-day, cheers, MP.

[PeterD]

How would you address the following?
buttons mapped to actions (flaps, switches, etc) , would the arms move instantly or would the movement be delayed?
multiple, consecutive keys pressed, how would the arms react? only the left arm performs the action or can both arms operate them?
imagine that you press two keys consecutively while doing a turn, one would be reached by the left arm naturally since it's on the left side of the cockpit, the other one would be on the right side of the cockpit, if both arms can operate instruments then suddenly the stick would need to move on its own magically OR the left hand would be used for both instruments OR a serious delay would need to be added: left hand operates first instrument, left hand takes control of the stick, right hand releases stick, right hand operates second instrument, right hand takes control of the stick back, left hand releases the stick.

This IMHO would not work very well while ingame, very complex and lots of problems that could "kill" the immersion. However for recorded tracks where you know in advance what is going to happen...different story (and I think it could look great)

[ChrisDNT]

No pilot in cockpit : ghost flying the aircraft !
Pilot with hands in cockpit : who's flying my aircraft ?

So, the best solution is the Lock-On one : only legs visible.

[Talisman]

Please let Oleg focus on more important things for a flight sim. Surely we want to see and use the cockpit without a dummy getting in the way. I don't want a first-aid sim, LOL. Next the pilot will have to be dressed in the correct flying clothing and on and on and on; no thanks.

I for one would like to have a flight sim more than a cartoon game. Pilot damage can be simulated without using a dummy pilot to view it.

Happy landings,

Talisman

[Mysticpuma]

Although I appreciate the points put forward, I would add that it could be an optional switch on or off for the player rather than just being told we don't want it. Nice to have a choice sometimes in a game you buy?

MP

[Feuerfalke]

I'd rather have a complete simulation before adding such entirely and purely eyecandy-stuff. Especially with all the animations that's a tremendous ammount of work and you have to do it for each individual cockpit and station!

You have a pilot on DCS:BlackShark as well. Just plain and simple with hands on collective and cyclic, but after looking at it once or twice in flight, you simply switch it off, because the instruments blocked are much more important for immersion than some puppets arms and knees.

[KOM.Nausicaa]

I think this will end the discussion...posted by Luthier Nov 2, 2009:

"We don't have anywhere near the time needed to animate the pilot model properly. We can put his hands on throttle and stick and feet on pedals, and then in half the cockpits he'll have other levers clipping through his body, stick clipping through his knees, etc. His arms will obscure important gauges on the dashboard.

With our new 6DOF free camera system that allows you to poke your head out the window or "bend" forward and look at the seat back, there's just no way we can animate the body to follow the camera, meaning you'd be able to twist your neck and look back on your own headless contorted body.

So, the answer is no. A poltergeist cockpit is not perfect, but the alternative is even worse. "

[Foo'bar]

Well I would like such a feature but I guess it would be problematic. Look: when I press a key on the keybord I would like to expect to feel the consequence immediately - and I don't want to wait until my alter ego puts his finger to the dashboard and click that little switch. I hope you know what I mean. There alweay would be a less or more delay between hitting a key and getting the result because of awaiting the arm's animation. When I want the flaps out I want them now out and not in 2 seconds.

I rather want no arms/legs before they don't look right.

[Lucas_From_Hell]

he pilot will have to be dressed in the correct flying clothing and on and on and on; no thanks.

So, basically, you want your pilot to be dressed wrong instead :confused:?

Doesn't sound really nice.

About the delay, I think this could be only an eye-candy. It would be too confusing to have the pilot to do every single movement (but, when it comes to delay on flaps, for example, it would be realistic. You only have to move your finger some centimeters and hit a button. The pilot has to extend his arm and pull a lever - and, in some cases, under some good G! So instant response wouldn't be realistic.)

Could be like in DCS - you can see the pilot moving rudder, throttle and stick, period.

[ChrisDNT]

And why simply not choose the Lock-On solution, which is the best "middle-term" solution, for not having a ghost flying the aircraft ?

[Foo'bar]

I believe that Oleg and the team will do it right :)

[Lucas_From_Hell]

And why simply not choose the Lock-On solution, which is the best "middle-term" solution, for not having a ghost flying the aircraft ?

It's good too, but, honestly, if you can have an animated model inside the cockpit, why to have only legs? Plus, I dislike that because I can't see the rudder pedals...

[TheGrunch]

I'd rather there wasn't. Too much effort for the team, too little reward. I've never had serious problems with immersion from not seeing a pilot in cockpit view.

[ECV56_Lancelot]

I'd rather there wasn't. Too much effort for the team, too little reward. I've never had serious problems with immersion from not seeing a pilot in cockpit view.

Me too, just trying to get in formation, avoid enemy fire, or maneuvering for the kill, the least thing you notice is there is a virtual pilot on the cockpit.
Maybe i will accept seeing a gunner if you are the pilot, on the Me-110 for example, or seeing the pilot if you are the gunner, but again, it would be very down on list of things to add.

[TheGrunch]

Yeah, I agree. Looking back from a gunner position and seeing the aircraft's controls moving on their own would be pretty weird.

[Lucas_From_Hell]

Yeah, I agree. Looking back from a gunner position and seeing the aircraft's controls moving on their own would be pretty weird.

Not quite, it's better to look and think "There's someone ghost flying this aircraft!" than "There's no one flying this aircraft!" :mrgreen:

Anyway, I don't think this is too time consuming to the point it should be ignored. We're talking about basic animations - legs pushing rudder left and right; right hand moving the stick around; left hand taking care of the throttle. But, of course, isn't anything close to top in priorities list. These details should be left for last (but not least), when the major things are done.

The point of having such small and, apparently silly things is that good simulators separate from the rest by the ammount of detail in it. These are those pilot animations, the cockpit sliding back, glasses breaking under fire, and all those little things that make you actually feel inside the cockpit, under pressure, under fire, and under G, rather than sitting in a chair in front of a monitor.

[TheGrunch]

Well, my perspective is that I'd rather use my imagination that rely on game developers modeling some 3D arms and legs that aren't attached to me, I can't move, and obscure instruments that I might want to read. :)

[Lucas_From_Hell]

Well, you're not invisible when inside a cockpit...

Plus, if the head is positioned correctly, it shouldn't hide many instruments (if any).

But it could be switcheable, so people who don't like it just turn it off.

[ChrisDNT]

"...if you can have an animated model inside the cockpit, why to have only legs?..."


Because, when I see only legs, I've the feeling of sitting myself in an aircraft cockpit, making some kind of "amphi cabine".

Hard to explain it on the psychological point of view, but legs are less "personal" than hands ;-)
So, if I see hands in a "cockpit view", I can only ask myself : "who is in my aircraft". Reaction that I don't have, when I see only legs.
I can only mention Lock-On once again, I just feel right in a Su-27 or an A-10, seeing only legs.

Btw, no seeing the rudder pedals is really not an important aspect, to me at least.

Of, course, "legs" should be optional, for people wanting them, or simply switchable, for the guys whining for the little useless instrument hidden by their big feet :-)

[Skoshi Tiger]

If we have multiple players flying in a single aircraft and I'm a gunner I think I'ld appreciate to be able to tell (by looking) if the pilot has decided to bail out! Apart from that I really not too fussy about having the pilot modeled.

[Foo'bar]

AFIAK Oleg stated that there will be models of other players visible in multi crew aircrafts.

[ECV56_Lancelot]

Thanks for the info Foobar, either i never saw it, or i didn´t remember it.

[zaelu]

Those who keep saying that there is no time to model and program some animations of a pilot hence it shouldn't even be tried to be implemented are just selfish and manifest a tendency to enjoy interdicting something that might appeal to someone else.

Lets clarify a bit the things.

-No one says here of a pilot always in cockpit. Those who don't like that option at all or momentary could press the toggle button to remove it or set the default stance as removed in options or config.

If you need to see rudder pedals moving (and somehow you dont see them because of the legs) and you need to interdict the whole idea of having the pilot animated inside cockpit that could bring much immersion for others then you realy don't know to fly (sorry if is sounding aggressive). is like driving a car and looking at the pedals...absurd

If you need to check if they are working or not... on the ground:
1. you can check them not in middle of the dogfight offline and surely you can see them moving after a bit of trying.
2. you can toggle away the pilot to do your checking
3. buy decent rudder pedals or check the potentiometers inside, you have a hardware problem. solve it! Don't start interdicting others pleasures just because of your problems... hardware or understanding.

If you don't see a gauge or button because of the pilots body:
1. Toggle it mometary or for good away!
2. Guess what! In real life you could block that view too with your body especially if you are not a thin guy. A pilot strapped in his belts and thrown inside the cockpit by G forces will realisticaly have problems checking all the stuff inside cockpit.

How about we ask Oleg to either put the compass in Spitfire vertically or not put it at all cause although... imersive and realistic is not really functioning for those without 6DoF and speed bar.

The cockpits in SoW will not be modeled to extensive in reagrds of start up procedures and very complex engine management... as stated by Oleg. So there will be minimal hindering of the body obstructing some positions of some main/secondary pump lever or something similar. if is a hindering for looking at the speedometer, altimeter and compass (which most of you are looking 100% of time when you don't use speedbar anyway) toggle it away or set it not to be shown.

Stop pretending is half of the game programing this darn pilot body... he is not. If it would be so much trouble then maybe Oleg and team can let a small window opened in this aspect for future moding of it. At the moment there are moders of Il-2 that can do much more complex programing and animations by reverse engineering and quickly, so I find very hard to believe it will be a problem doing it with proper provided dev tools.

Stop trying to interdict or block what others like just because you dont like or understand. This is like the old trying to block others to use wide screen... or HOTAS... or TrackIR... or 6DoF... ore Gore effects... or left arm... or smoking what they please.

I gave in the other thread the example of DCS Black Shark... which probably some of you don't know or not use.

There is a pilot in the cockpit of Ka-50 in that game
It is animated... but just stick moving, collectives and rudder pedals.
It is not a big problem he is not touching the buttons... the gazillions of them that are literaly clickable in the cockpit.
It can pe toggle on off and can be set to be off or on by default
I imagine the animations of the pilot were not much more problematic than the animations of the cockpit itself (stick, colectives, pedals and milions of buttons and switches)... as a matter of fact... when the pilot is on he is basicaly attached to the controls.
The cockpit of DCS Black Shark is a lot more complex than any SoW cockpit (as they are presented from WIP info) but still... it features a "hindering body pilot" which many find it immersive.

Pilots body can be sometimes avoided by using a 6DoF solution... buy or build one... you will not regret it.
Pilot animations in DCS goes beyond cockpit view. He is animated on the ground after ejection as you can walk away!! Or he even is making a cross sign in gratitude for he's escape... or lit a cigar...


Here are two examples of pilot seen in DCS:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NalLLT-5J-4 and http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RZjSI021j-c


To Oleg and team:

Please let at least the posibility for the pilot to be moded and animated inside. I understand there will be some skeletal animation posible in the game so all hope is not lost.
Please consider in animating or letting the door open to be later moded the animation of bailing out in first person... where the presence of the body will be important for those who find it immersive.
Please consider in at least letting it open for moding the animation of wounds or death as the pilot will just hang in the belts with his head blobing around or falling on the dashboard... a lot more "immersive" and realistic than the black screen.

Thank you for reading.

[ChrisDNT]

Frankly, between nobody in the cockpit and a guy with his hands visible in MY cockpit, I still prefer the "Casper" option.

Please, Lock-On option, only legs.

[Drum_tastic]

hasn't this already been said to be not in the sim, by Oleg and crew? So why are people still harping on about it?

Frankly that pilot in blackshark looks pants. I would hate to see that in the game. It is just too unrealistic.

Now, some want it and some don't and it doesn't seem to be on the road map as far as the developers are concearned.

So, it seems to me the people who want it will have to wait until it can be developed by a third party or Oleg thinks it's time. Simples!

There are many more important aspects of the game to me, FM, damage model, sounds terrain, career mode, the list goes on and I want to be able to see all those beautiful new instruments un-hindered by a pair of sausage legs and arms

[Skoshi Tiger]

From a Movie making point of view (as I think this was the original intent of the thread. could be wrong though! ), what would be more important for the film makers. A 1st person view of the pilots hands legs etc, or a movable 3rd person view so they can compose shots?
(looking over their shoulder, closeups of faces etc)

[Skoshi Tiger]

hasn't this already been said to be not in the sim, by Oleg and crew? So why are people still harping on about it?

Frankly that pilot in blackshark looks pants. I would hate to see that in the game. It is just too unrealistic.

Now, some want it and some don't and it doesn't seem to be on the road map as far as the developers are concearned.

So, it seems to me the people who want it will have to wait until it can be developed by a third party or Oleg thinks it's time. Simples!

There are many more important aspects of the game to me, FM, damage model, sounds terrain, career mode, the list goes on and I want to be able to see all those beautiful new instruments un-hindered by a pair of sausage legs and arms

Yes :)

[ElAurens]

Totally selfish answer here, as frankly I don't want an animated goofy looking mannequin in the way of seeing things in the cockpit.

I'd much rather the time was spent on more flyable aircraft or other combat related features. You know, the things we actually play the sim for.

If you want a doll in the cockpit go buy a Barbie and put it on your desk.

:rolleyes:

[proton45]

If done right, it could be an ok feature...but, at this time its not on the top of my wish list. Sorry.... :(

[zaelu]

You keep imagining is so much complicated to have the pilot body animated for those... 6 flyables.

Maybe a guy who knows a bit about 3D working would tell us how much time is it taking to link the hands (2, TWO) and the legs (yep, two also) to the Stick-throttle and respectively, rudder pedals so they will move in sync with the already animated stick,throttle and pedals. Or you don't wish for them to be animated either? I thought so... This done with a modern 3D application and not 3d max 1.0.

But rest assure... if Oleg lets this opened for moding will be aout from moding garages in short time.

As for the Barbie doll from the post above... that sarcasm is just hiding the misunderstanding of the issue.

[ElAurens]

A. It's not sarcasm.

B. I perfectly understand what you want.

C. It's not an "issue", it's a request for useless eye candy that in no way will enhance immersion. In fact it will detract from it. Flying in the third person perspective? Not a good idea.

[KOM.Nausicaa]

You keep imagining is so much complicated to have the pilot body animated for those... 6 flyables.

Maybe a guy who knows a bit about 3D working would tell us how much time is it taking to link the hands (2, TWO) and the legs (yep, two also) to the Stick-throttle and respectively, rudder pedals so they will move in sync with the already animated stick,throttle and pedals. Or you don't wish for them to be animated either? I thought so... This done with a modern 3D application and not 3d max 1.0.

But rest assure... if Oleg lets this opened for moding will be aout from moding garages in short time.

As for the Barbie doll from the post above... that sarcasm is just hiding the misunderstanding of the issue.

Well I know about 3D and you wont get the pilot. It not possible in the SoW BoB cockpits, or at a huge price of work only - very huge. I think the whole discussion is a loss of time.

[proton45]

Well I know about 3D and you wont get the pilot. It not possible in the SoW BoB cockpits, or at a huge price of work only - very huge. I think the whole discussion is a loss of time.

I would imagine that it could take quite a lot of work to model a human in the cockpit, to the same quality as the rest of the cockpit is now (as seen in screen caps).

[zaelu]

A. It's not sarcasm.

B. I perfectly understand what you want.

C. It's not an "issue", it's a request for useless eye candy that in no way will enhance immersion. In fact it will detract from it. Flying in the third person perspective? Not a good idea.

How do you understand "perfectly" if you name this "flying in 3rd person"? ;) is about own virtual body awarenes... in first person... you dont see your head... you see the rest of your body. you are in that head as in first person.

example 2

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z_0fnl26Z5c

Well I know about 3D and you wont get the pilot. It not possible in the SoW BoB cockpits, or at a huge price of work only - very huge. I think the whole discussion is a loss of time.

OK... let's hear a different opinion. Are you working on SoW?

[TheGrunch]

OK... let's hear a different opinion. Are you working on SoW?
Would it matter to you if he was? Doesn't seem like it. Oleg and luthier have both said 'no, too much work' already.

[ZaltysZ]

Yes, no need to have visible body in cockpit. However, I hope that "invisible" body will still have limits and we will not be able to turn heads like birds or like that little girl in movie "Exorcist".

[TheGrunch]

Yes, no need to have visible body in cockpit. However, I hope that "invisible" body will still have limits and we will not be able to turn heads like birds or like that little girl in movie "Exorcist".
Haha! We do have limits already, to be fair, just not fully-tightened-for-combat harness kind of limits. The worst one for anatomical impossibility at the moment is upward, IMO.

[KOM.Nausicaa]

OK... let's hear a different opinion. Are you working on SoW?

Hi,

I want to clarify this. No, I am not working on Sow:BoB. I work however since a long time in the movie/games industry as visual consultant and art director, and I lead 3D teams all the time. Over time I have come to an understanding of specific 3D related problems.
The misconception you guys are doing is to think the problems relates sorely to build a pilot model, but that is not the whole story. The real problem is the integration. Luthier has already said it too.

[zaelu]

KOM.Nausicaa, you are correct. I know how the "simple animations" from 3DS max are convoluted translated into hier.him and other files that control all the cockpit and I imagine is a PITA for one guy to do it. But... so is the whole game after all... if enough want the game... the game gets out. If enough want the pilot... the pilot will get out.

However... we... the supporters of "optional in cockpit viewable pilot" are asking if the pilot canot be modeled due to resource shortage at least let the door opened to moding it after release.

But... we are "welcomed" by people that say: ...due to resource limitations and the fact that we hate (for psyhological reasons we do not disclose) what you like, not only that the pilot should not be included... but the door to moding it should be firmly closed and all people asking for it should be ridiculed with Barbie doll wet dreams comparisions and stuff....

If you know what I mean ;)...

[luthier]

I highly doubt you'll see your own body in the cockpit in the release, and, as I've recently come to realize, the main reason is 6DOF. Not just with TrackIR; you can move around the cockpit with the mouse too.

We would either have to restrict your head movements to what the 3D pilot model can animate, or have the model twist and distort comically to follow your POV. Either would detract from the game hugely. Dashboard being constantly blocked by your limbs would also hugely detract from the game, and amplify the 6DOF issue even further.

I myself really, really, really want to have a body in the game. There are many others in the team who feel exactly the same. We've been trying to figure out a way for years. But it just creates more problems than it solves. Maybe if we were doing a study sim, maybe, but with multiple flyables, there's just no way.

You're more than welcome to try with the mods though.

[Foo'bar]

Amen.

And now let's return to the really important things ;)

[DoolittleRaider]

Oleg 1C software designers, under extreme pressure for a solution to the pilot-in-cockpit dilemma, have apparently decided on the "Toggle" solution: Toggle On, Toggle Off, to suit your preference....toggle Toggle TOGGLE....they are even going to celebrate:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mlc_GYKDIrI


The 1C software team's lament: "...they're going to nail us no matter what we do..."


:)

[zaelu]

I highly doubt you'll see your own body in the cockpit in the release, and, as I've recently come to realize, the main reason is 6DOF. Not just with TrackIR; you can move around the cockpit with the mouse too.

We would either have to restrict your head movements to what the 3D pilot model can animate, or have the model twist and distort comically to follow your POV. Either would detract from the game hugely. Dashboard being constantly blocked by your limbs would also hugely detract from the game, and amplify the 6DOF issue even further.

I myself really, really, really want to have a body in the game. There are many others in the team who feel exactly the same. We've been trying to figure out a way for years. But it just creates more problems than it solves. Maybe if we were doing a study sim, maybe, but with multiple flyables, there's just no way.

You're more than welcome to try with the mods though.


Thanks for the answer! I am sure moders will try to help after release. Pilot models I've seen are very detailed so the animations and compromises remain to be done :) .