New HOTAS advice

[ECV56_Guevara]

I need a new Hotas. So I ask for the community´s advice :
the candidates are:

CH (stick + rudder + throttle)
Saitek (X65F?) + rudder
Logitech g 940
Only for Il-2. Mainly flying bombers and ground attack planes.

Cougar is out only for logistical reasons.
Please I need the more objective statements. I´m a Saitek user and I´m happy whit my old Hotas, but also interested in CH producs, that are hard to find in my country. The logitech looks very interesting. Thanks in advance.

[rakinroll]

I only can say: CH Yoke

[fuzzychickens]

The x65 uses force tranducers or something like that, essentially the stick doesn't move at all - it senses how much force is applied and translates that into control surface deflection.

Not sure how well it lends itself to WWI, WWII, and Korean sims where gunnery is till a big factor.

CH is really the best choice unless you prefer style over substance. CH has no style - but it gets the job done better than anything else. It's accurate (more so than everything else) and reliable (the opposite of the cougar).

I think CH has something in the works - a new addition to their flight sticks I'm guessing based on activity from other manufacturers.

http://www.ch-hangar.com/forum/showpost.php?p=40536&postcount=10

No details yet, but at least they are admitting they are working on something.

[nearmiss]

CHPRODUCTS

FighterStick
Pro Pedals
Pro Throttle
MFP

New CH Eclipse yoke is nice, but only a few fighters in IL2 use yoike all the rest are stick.

All the best of the best and fully programmable.

Not Forcefeedback, but that'll be an advantage Online play. You won't be bouncing around everytime you shoot, or make a miniscule move of controls.

Why because you get better registration on targets, which converts to more kills.

[Voyager]

[...]
CH is really the best choice unless you prefer style over substance. CH has no style - but it gets the job done better than anything else. It's accurate (more so than everything else) and reliable (the opposite of the cougar).
[...]


They may have no style, but they feel so nice. CH makes their parts out of a different plastic that any other joystick maker I've bought from. I'm not sure what it is, but they stay comfortable to hold even through extremely heavy usage. I think it also helps that they have a micro-roughened surface. Not course, you can't see it in the pictures, but not smooth either; just right. Attracts dust like a magnet, though.

Their software is good. It looks like something out of Windows 3.1, but it is highly function, and will do anything you need it to. For a while I had a mapping which mapped the mini-stick on the throttle to the arrows keys, complete with a dead zone mapping that left a wide center dead zone, such that just bumping it wouldn't do anything, but if I pushed it past 60% deflection, then the key press would be activated. I was using it to control thrust vectoring in a SciFi game I was playing at the time.

Some things that I'm still not fully sold on at the shape and button layout of the Fighterstick. It's encrusted in tilt switches, but I find that most of them, particularly on the head of the stick, aren't easy to reach, and generally, by the time I've mapped 16 different functions to something, I've forgotten what most of them were, and I find it to be a bit top heavy myself. It may just be that I spent most of my time using MS Sidewinders before I moved to CH, so your mileage may vary.

Overall, I'd still say they are as good as you're going to get, without getting one that's custom built, and I've used a lot of joysticks over the years.

Harry Voyager

[Sokol1]

Get:
CH F16 Figtherstick
CH PRO throttle > see that no have "rotaries"...
For pedal consider Saitek PRO Pedal - CH Pedal are too narrow...
And some people have a six months unsolved problem:
http://www.ch-hangar.com/forum/showthread.php?t=6323

If you don't have big hands you will have problems in reaching the main HAT in CH F16:
http://img504.imageshack.us/img504/788/chhight.jpg

And consider that is easy obtain spare parts for CH:
http://www.chproducts.com/shop/parts.html

Despite his Shop Cart not consider the "rest of the world"... You need to send email first.

Sokol1

[Thunderbolt56]

The CH kit is hands down the most durable, precise and versatile kit for IL2.

[JG52Uther]

CH
I don't think I will ever have to buy another stick,my fighterstick will probably outlast me.

[HFC_Dolphin]

When I bought my first CH-Fighterstick (before 6 years?), I loved it so much that after a year I bought one more, just in case something happens to the first one.

Well, after all these years, the spare CH is still in its box gathering dust.
The first stick is still as good as a new one!

My only "complaint" with CH products is that Pro-throttle does not have rotaries and this is a small disadvantage when it comes to prop. pitch handling. But that's just a detail that matters in top-top-top level dogfights.

Go for CH and don't listen to sirens!!!

[Revvin]

I think CH has something in the works - a new addition to their flight sticks I'm guessing based on activity from other manufacturers.

http://www.ch-hangar.com/forum/showpost.php?p=40536&postcount=10

No details yet, but at least they are admitting they are working on something.

Projects such as the ones undertaken by CH Products are in development a long time before anyone hears anything, it would be wrong to jump to conclusions that any announcement would be driven by another manufacturers activity and that they would feel the need to make a 'me too' announcement.

[metro163]

I would suggest G940.

[Chivas]

Its hard to find a decent Hotas system today. They all have their drawbacks. I'm currently using an MSFF2 joystick, Cougar Throttle, and Saitek Rudder Pedals.

I also currently have the CH Fighter Stick, Saitek X52, Cougar Joystick, and Saitek Aviator and none of them have the precision of the now defunct MSFF2 joystick. The CH stick is very sturdy but I don't like the clunky feeling gimbals that can throw your aim off while travelling thru the x y axis. The Cougar is even worse, although you can buy a very expensive set of after market gimbals. My X52's deadzone problem made the stick usefull only when flying bombers.

If I was buying today I would go for the Logitech G940. I don't particularly like the new X65 non movement pressure only joystick, expecially for WW2 aircraft. Who knows when CH will come out with something a little better.

[Thunderbolt56]

You can probably get a good deal here: http://forum.1cpublishing.eu/showthread.php?t=10347

[ECV56_Guevara]

Thanks a lot guys!!!
It´s amazing the way the CH users talk about their Hotas. Must be really good ones.
@Thunderbolt: it´s imposible buy that joy, cos´the taxes of importing it (50% of the product value plus shiping). My brand new joy will avoid custom taxes cos a friend is bringing it home from USA.

[Lucas_From_Hell]

I'm trying to get myself a new HOTAS (or even just a good joystick) too.

I'm currently messing around with a Logitech Force 3D Pro (not even close to the best thing in the world, I know)

The thing is, I got addicted to the Force Feedback, and so I'm not really sure if CH, Saitek and Thrustmaster products would fit my taste, as they don't have FFB. I've heard a bunch of positive and negative comments on all of them.

Fighterstick is always referred to as reliable, precise and etc. I don't recall reading anything negative about it. If anyone knows about some flawn (even if minor) on it (besides the lack of FFB), please tell me.

Saitek is also referred as a good stick, but I remember reading some negative stuff about it. I've read about a big dead-zone in the center, and also something about it not being very resistent. Plus, some of the models have a bizarre look, and that cover to the "Fire" button that isn't really realistic. If anyone can add anything else (or a more detailed observations about the already commented problems), please post it here too. But the major issue still is: no FFB.

Cougar is a litte bit "love it or hate it". I've saw many positive and negative reviews. I've heard people saying that it's not very precise and sensitive, and about it being too stiff (more exactly, "it's as stiff as a real aircraft, but when you're actually flying you have a much wider field to move the stick around"). But, if it's actually that stiff, I could use the feature it has that makes the stick "detaches" from its base, and using the same kind of plug, put it thru a metal bar in the shape of a real stick's one to make the field of movement wider, and to make it more close to a real A/C's one. If anyone knows any minor or major issue with this one, please tell me too.

And the solution could be the G940, BUT it's a little bit too expensive... And plus, there are some minor problems some users have already found.

Any ideas on it?

[Skoshi Tiger]

Fighterstick is always referred to as reliable, precise and etc. I don't recall reading anything negative about it. If anyone knows about some flawn (even if minor) on it (besides the lack of FFB), please tell me.


I'm not sure this is a flaw or just my personal preference.

For years I'ld been using a CH-Combat stick. The top part of the combat stick three push buttons and two coolie hats that you access through your thumb.

The Fighter stick has one push button, a two-way switch and three coolie hats that you access with your thumb.

Even though in modern fighter sims you need the functions, in a WWII fighter sims it just seams more natural for me to use the push buttons rather than the two way and coolie hats. Some times less is moore, but that could just be me!

Right from the start I was even considering trying to swap the combat stick buttons onto my fighter stick but I'm not brave enough to try.

Cheers!

[nearmiss]

My setup is CHPRODUCTS. Fighterstick, ProPedals, ProThrottle, and MFP.

I have two powered USB hubs to drive all the USB devices. The non-powered hubs gave me all kinds of little glitchy issues.

Now when I CFS my desk is arrayed in all it's glory with

Fighterstick,ProThrottle,MFP,Mouse,Keyboard... webcam on monitor,headset with headtracker for Freetrack.

Am I missing something, when I started Il2 I used my mouse with my left hand and it moved around freely to see all the sim world, my MSFT FF2 stick and keyboard.

Things were simpler that is sure. I don't know, but I often wonder if I've not gone too far for enjoyment of the IL2. LOL

I would highly recommend my setup, especially the CHPRODUCTS no bad surprises there of any kind. Logitech came out with their hotas recently, and it looks pretty good... but alas my setup will probably serve me very well for years to come. I don't feel bad about that, because I recall trying to remove Logitech mouse drivers from my computer in the past and finally gave up. So, I don't think of Logitech or Thrustmaster (Cougar) as a professional company compared to CHPRODUCTS. Chproducts actually makes professional joysticks and controls for commercial usage. It is probably a huge benefit that we can even buy such quality at anywhere near a competitive consumer price.

[Robert]

I get a bit of wanderlust when I see these new sticks coming out. They're sexy with all the right buttons to twitch. They're more stylish. Then I look at my trusty CH and wonder if those other sticks will serve me as well as my CH.

Us CH folks are loyal to our purchase because CH has made a product that's been loyal to us. I've had no issues with mine, and with VERY VERY few incidents in my forum parusals from other owners. We love it cuz it works.

Chivas hit upon the only negative with CH and it's a personal thing. The movement across the X/Y axis is different than other manufacturer's sticks. It took me a short while to get used to it, but it wasn't anything that affected me once I did. If you are moving diagnally and cross the center there is a clunk (for lack of better word). As I said it didn't take me long to get used to it and I don't even notice it. It's hardly worth noting for me, but Chivas is right to bring it up because, IMO, a stick is something that you should be comfortable with. While I love CH and think they are the best sticks, I'd hate to highly recommend something and not tell someone of a caveat that may really bother them. At least it's a fully informed decision.

I've had 2 Logitecs and three Saiteks over the years. I started PC simming in 2002. I've flown CH ONLY for four years. So for the first 3 years I went through five sticks (either didn't like or wore out) and the last 4 I've been issue free and happy.


CH is the shiznet. Believe it.

[Aeropush]

Saitek is also referred as a good stick, but I remember reading some negative stuff about it. I've read about a big dead-zone in the center, and also something about it not being very resistent. Plus, some of the models have a bizarre look, and that cover to the "Fire" button that isn't really realistic. If anyone can add anything else (or a more detailed observations about the already commented problems), please post it here too. But the major issue still is: no FFB.



Having made the mistake of not researching the X52 more, I can tell you I probably wouldn't have gone with a cheap alternative to a full system. I bought a new X52 for a little over $80 and almost immediately noticed a problem with the stick losing calibration during missions. And the deadzone was frustratingly large. But these problems only occur with games like Heroes Over Europe and Blazing Angels 2. The stick works quite well with IL2 and FSX. But as a licensed pilot, I quickly realized that a twist stick for rudder control is just not for me. I'll sell this X52 and spend the added expense for one of the new full systems with rudder pedals and FFB. Which one is the question. I'm already hearing of problems with the G940 and the X65 is unknown for now. And of course, I'd like to see what CH has in store.

[nearmiss]

As a professional pilot you will appreciate the CH products probably more than most. CH makes commercial joysticks,etc. The quality is the best you'll find in any consumer product in the controller category.

There is a learning threshold of course, and it's pretty steep for the most part. The control manager is a very comprehensive software.

Recommend - fighterstick, propedals, prothrottle... can vary, but the three aren't a cheap package. If you cross over to several other sims you might want to get an MFP, and it is $200.

Cougar is good, but you need to spend almost as much on gimbels and other fixes. They'll cost about the same as the cougar... expensive way to go. I definitely don't see it as a best way to go unless you are into Falcon 4 in a big way.

I used MSFT FF2 stick with twist rudder for a long time, and to be real honest that twist rudder isn't that bad on a better stick. Still, it's nothing like a good pedals. I use the rudder pedals to swish side to side without screwing up my stick registration on ground targets and head on passes. I can spray all over the sky laterally... LOL

Good stuff, you won't regret it. That's a fact.. quality wise that is.

[Sokol1]

Thrustmaster plan a new HOTAS:

http://img243.imageshack.us/img243/3733/warthog.jpg

Probable with HALL sensor like in T.16000M.
A-10 means dual throttle...

Sokol1

[frenchfly]

I've been flying with the g940 for the last few weeks, and I can assure you that it's been rock solid with no problems on my end. If you want force feedback it's the only way to go right now and you won't be disappointed.

Frenchfly

[Lucas_From_Hell]

Well, maybe I should go CH... But the problem would be the rudder. The pedals may be good, but cost the same as the joystick. Throttle isn't THAT necessary, as I can do it with the one built-in FighterStick

Maybe the FFB isn't THAT necessary (and now I've just realized that I don't recall feeling any force feedback effect in the Su-30 simulator). As the buttons x hats, well, I'm more into the hats, as I've been going over the dark side (read "modern jets") very oftenly, and played such games even more than IL-2, recently.

It's a hell of a hard choice, still :-P

The games I've been playing recently are only Lock On and IL-2.

Nearmiss, what do you mean by extra expenses with the Cougar? Is there anything that has to be changed on it?

[nearmiss]

The Cougar is competent, but there are problems with gimbels and the inner workings of it. You should check around on Falcon 4.0 boards (Simhq) and ask questions there, if you are thinking about a Cougar. In fact, I recalll there was a company selling replacement gimbels,throttle pots and stuff for around $250 US.

The CHproducts pedals can be bought for around $100US, if you shop.

Chproducts are quality construction. When you are putting your big heavy feet and legs on them you need quality construction.

You'll never regret a CHproduct purchase. I doubt you'll read a bad report on their products either.

[Lucas_From_Hell]

Thanks for the answers, guys.

$250 for pots and stuff?! Holy f***! It's almost a brand new G940 (at least I saw it being selled by $273 on Amazon).

I guess Cougar's out then...

But, if I actually get a FighterStick or something, what do you guys think I should use for rudder? I don't think I can get the pedals and stick at the same time, so it might be an issue.

[Chivas]

You will need rudder pedals with the CH Fighterstick because its not a twist stick. I guess I'm the only one who doesn't like the poor transistion thru the X and Y axis of the CH gimbals.

If I were you I would spend the extra monies and buy a full setup. You won't regret it in the long run. I don't have the Logitech G940 but its one I'm very interested it.

For those that do have the G940 does it use electrical centering forces or spring centering, and how smooth are the gimbals going thru the X and Y axis.

[nearmiss]

I guess I'm the only one who doesn't like the poor transistion thru the X and Y axis of the CH gimbals.I don't think it is that poor, but if you pay attention you will notice. I've not noticed how much it affects virtual performance.

If you had to rate the fighterstick, how would you rate it with 100% being the best of the best.

I would easily rate it a 95+%. I would prefer not to have the sliders on the sides of the stick, because you can't use them with your hand on the stick in combat. You can't take your hand off the stick and, if your left hand is busy as well with other things on the prothrottle.

IMO, it would be best to have some extra slider switches on the prothrottle. This way you could slide for trim, instead of bumping a switch to do the work.

You have to remember that there is a slow response (delay) on the pitch trim in IL2 after all the online wars over "trim on a slider". That screws the pooch another way. LOL

[Robert]

You will need rudder pedals with the CH Fighterstick because its not a twist stick. I guess I'm the only one who doesn't like the poor transistion thru the X and Y axis of the CH gimbals.

If I were you I would spend the extra monies and buy a full setup. You won't regret it in the long run. I don't have the Logitech G940 but its one I'm very interested it.

For those that do have the G940 does it use electrical centering forces or spring centering, and how smooth are the gimbals going thru the X and Y axis.


I'm sure your not the only one. I was startled at the feeling in the beginning and compared to the other sticks was something I didn't like. It didn't take long to get used to and now I barely notice it. Funny though. I recently went for almost a month without flying and it took me a few minutes to acclimate myself to the center, and is one of the reasons I'd mention the 'transition' to someone looking at CH. I'd stress that it doesn't take long to get used to it, but it feels different than what you'd expect, and in all honesty it's that difference between the expectation of how all other sticks feel while transitioning across the center and how CH feels that causes the 'discomfort.' Once I realised that it's just mechanically different I was determined to go with the flow. It didn't take long.

As a matter of fact you are the only person I've ever read about who couldn't get used to the transitioning, chivas. It's important to be comfortable with what you fly with.

[Chivas]

Your probably right, as I never gave CH much of a chance, and may have gotten used to it.

I'm currently using a
MSFF2 joystick
Cougar Throttle
Saitek Pro Rudder Pedals

with back up sticks.
Cougar
CH Fighter Stick
Saitek Aviator
X52 ( oh ya I forget I took a sledge hammer to it ) :)

But I'm interested in the G940, but I'd hate to give up my Cougar Throttle and Foxy Programming. Although you can mix and match joysticks and throttles as neccessary. Unfortunately you'd have to set some Hotas parts under the desk, Although you can just take the cct. board out of the peripheral your not using as I did with the Cougar joystick. Someday I may find an appropriate U joint and make a gimbal for the Cougar.

[hiro]

I will +1 to CH. The stick is loose feeling but so far great. Fighter stick, someone mentioned you need big hands, its true. I can't reach all the buttons and hats, but I've learned to move my hand positions w/out skipping a beat to hit all the buttons.

The pedals are excellent, only complaint is the foot placement should've been a little wider. I think CH was catering to the ladies :) . But its smooth and IL-2 translates oh so awesome to rudder.



The throttle is great also. I thought, 'nah I can use the throttle on the fighter stick' but decided to get it anyway (save shipping) and due to recommendations from CH hotas users' postings. Whats cool is the extra buttons and hats on the throttle really help with adding more flight necessary controls at your finger tips.

What I like about CH is the smoothness and feel. They translate very well to IL-2. I have Il-2 on 100% sensitivity and I can fly easy. I like the feel of the pedals and its so much better than the twist on joysticks. Twist on joysticks for rudder is like having soy tofu meat as opposed to CH pedals for rudder, a filet mignon when you have beef cravings.


Only thing lacking are trim wheels on throttle but you can get over that with CH programming.

CH allows you to use the joystick straight out of the box (XP has settings in game controllers in control panel and you can configure there and in IL-2 hotas settings) or you can get the CH control manager software and program as much as you want for those wanting to delve into that.

In this I found out that its better to program using CH control manager software as you can get more out of your CH set up.

It's well worth the price tag and warranty is long (2 yrs).


With my previous joystick (logitech) 70% sensitivity was bouncing around the place (I like my control settings sensitive, a carry over for max mouse sensitivity from FPS days).

Also I ran into several posts in the 'zoo and CH hanger where people still use the gameport versions and been using same equipment today that predated IL-2.

Not only that, a friend works for the govt with UAV's programming teams and the UAV crews use CH stuff to fly them around.




That would be sick / cool / awesome / tight / fresh / tits if the HOTAS warthog gave every sim you used it with an avenger gatling gun in game like Chuck Norris mere presence includes his uber roundhouse kick.

[Tvrdi]

for me...its still the best combination:

MSFF2 (or older precision pro) or CH Combatstick
+
X52 or X52 pro throttle
+
Saitek rudder pedals (only tried them but Im still saving for one)


G940 is good as I heard but you need to use only logitech gear...no room for combinations....

[Chivas]

for me...its still the best combination:

MSFF2 (or older precision pro) or CH Combatstick
+
X52 or X52 pro throttle
+
Saitek rudder pedals (only tried them but Im still saving for one)


G940 is good as I heard but you need to use only logitech gear...no room for combinations....


The game would only see the G940 as one unit so you could use other Hotas parts, but in the case of the G940 where the Hotas parts can't be seperated you would have to put the parts of the Hotas your not using to the side somewhere. Or, as I said in my case, I took the cct board out of the Cougar joystick and put it in a smaller box. Easier to hide.

[Sokol1]

The game would only see the G940 as one unit so you could use other Hotas parts,

Differently of another HOTAS, G940 is see by Windows as TREE individual game devices.

Logitech_Mark
G940 shows up in Windows as three devices - Stick, Throttles, rudder pedals.


This limit you to use more one device, due IL-2 recognize up to four.

...but in the case of the G940 where the Hotas parts can't be seperated you would have to put the parts of the Hotas your not using to the side somewhere.

You can use G940 without pedals, in some review posted in these forums the guy still using your Simped Pedal (that use HALL sensor and exponential curves).

But stand-alone G940 pedal is useless - don't have own USB controller...

Logitech_Mark
The pedals are not a stand-alone set of USB pedals with a proprietary connector. They are axes extended from the main unit.


Due this, you can hook only more one device, in IL-2.

Another consideration is that is possible use G940 with FF off - only with return to center force. I consider M$ FF 2 USB with FF off better (more precise) than my CH Combatstick.

Sokol1

[Chivas]

I'm surprised that the G940 hotas that uses only on usb connection shows up as 3 different ID's in IL-2. Since you can use three different hotas functions on one device like the MSFF2's throttle, twist rudder, and joystick and Il-2 see them as one device. Very unfortunate.